Frictional Games Forum (read-only)

It didn't bother me the first time I played through, but now for some reason I stopped to think about how illogical some maps are set up.
Some are fine, such as back hall, main entrance, cistern, wine cellar, guest room and the archives.
Some make less sense (especially the chasing scenes). You run through long corridors with inexplicable turns and T-junctions that don't have any logical reason for being there because there is no room there.
Some make a little sense but are still a little strange, such as the prison cells, rainy hall, old archives, where you have long corridors and a few cells and rooms, but also a lot of inexplicable voids, the whole thing just seems to be more of a tunnel system than a 'block', which seems like a very inefficient way to design a building.

Also I wonder, if you could stick all the maps together, attaching them where they should be attached (the level doors), assuming the engine theoretically supported it, would the maps fit together, or would there be overlapping sections?

(06-03-2012, 11:09 AM)cantremember Wrote: [ -> ]It didn't bother me the first time I played through, but now for some reason I stopped to think about how illogical some maps are set up.
Some are fine, such as back hall, main entrance, cistern, wine cellar, guest room and the archives.
Some make less sense (especially the chasing scenes). You run through long corridors with inexplicable turns and T-junctions that don't have any logical reason for being there because there is no room there.
Some make a little sense but are still a little strange, such as the prison cells, rainy hall, old archives, where you have long corridors and a few cells and rooms, but also a lot of inexplicable voids, the whole thing just seems to be more of a tunnel system than a 'block', which seems like a very inefficient way to design a building.

Also I wonder, if you could stick all the maps together, attaching them where they should be attached (the level doors), assuming the engine theoretically supported it, would the maps fit together, or would there be overlapping sections?

It actually is explained that Alexander uses these underground tunnels for getting around the castle (at least the sewers, but I think the Archive Tunnels are technically the same type of structure, just adapted for travel by Alexander). As you know, sewers in real life are only used by maintenance people and actually do have a lot of dead ends that have nothing but machinery, which would explain the illogical architecture (as it wasn't designed to be a part of the overall structure). It is not a hand wave to say that Alexander did it himself because there is a flashback where he talks about making some heavy modifications to the castle, reinforcing old structures, which would no doubt require the use of these shortcuts.

On top of that, the omnipresent Shadow often causes things to shake violently, which would undoubtedly cause the weaker parts of the castle to cave in, which would explain many of the dead ends.

EDIT: Actually, I got the impression that everything underground was commissioned by Alexander. Personal elevators were definitely not common at that time and it was probably a huge headache to get working and because the castle was not originally designed to be underground (assuming Alexander was not the first owner) then that would make all of these structures custom built. Though he did mention one of his duties as baron was also that of a prison warden, my guess is the authorities never actually inspected the prison cells and thus were not aware of their actual location, which could mean he originally had a dungeon but then built a new one underground. If my theory is correct, that would mean all of his servants built the underground sections to fit in with the sewer and cistern systems over the course of decades or centuries. If you go with this theory, actually all of the illogicality of the underground sections is justified, because he is crazy. That netherworld looking thing (Chancel) and the Choir especially are definitely customized.

You might want to address height in addition to width and length when discussing maps and the lore around them.
For instance, the Archive Tunnels:
The roundabout-part of the Archive Tunnels. No doors for the possible room over there. Useless, you'd say? Well, I think the middle of that roundabout is the shaft for the elevator encountered in the Back Hall.

You see how weirdly designed the Storage is?
Not efficient at all. Yet you have a locked door somewhere. Do you know where it leads? Perhaps to other chambers which then fit in the design as a whole? And maybe it also leads to (for players hidden) chambers in other levels which make up for the weird design you encounter?

Locked doors, crumbled rocks, etc... all stuff where the player can't enter, but you can make up something in the lore for it.

Lastly, not all levels should be lore-wise designed as a whole. Some "levels" could be built modular: one chamber was enough for its time, but after a while another chamber should be built. But because there was no place to build it as other chambers next to it already exist (the ones not accessible for the player), some engineering tricks should be pulled out: create a tunnel and perhaps a corner, then build the next chamber after that. And so on...

From a game-technical point of view, all levels don't fit as a whole castle. Some levels overlap in the greater architecture, or are just positioned wrong. Re-creating Amnesia in Minecraft as one big castle, I saw that the big door in the Rainy Hall and the big door in the Entrance hall, which "should" be the same, actually are tens of metres away from each other in reality. Daniel's Chamber and the Study basically overlap, as the two doors are next to each other in the Back Hall. The Archive Tunnels has two exits who lead to the same door in the Back Hall. I could go on...

So please only complain about the lore section, then make something up to address your issue. Thanks.

I'm very impressed with those maps; did you make them yourself?

Anyway I think some overlapping can be excused, as this game is not "free-roaming" (no loading screens) like the first two Thief games. The levels were probably all mapped separately and even though it obviously had some sort of overall design I doubt it was followed 100%.

Quote:Rainy Hall and the big door in the Entrance hall

Is this true though? The Entrance Hall door, in my opinion, would be the exit and the Rainy Hall one would be...something. -.-

(06-03-2012, 08:25 PM)Putmalk Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:Rainy Hall and the big door in the Entrance hall

Is this true though? The Entrance Hall door, in my opinion, would be the exit and the Rainy Hall one would be...something. -.-

Isn't the door in the Entrance Hall opened in one if the endings? Daniel walks towards it as light shine through the opened door, daylight, and not as it would if it led to the Rainy Hall.

(06-03-2012, 08:49 PM)Prelauncher Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-03-2012, 08:25 PM)Putmalk Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:Rainy Hall and the big door in the Entrance hall

Is this true though? The Entrance Hall door, in my opinion, would be the exit and the Rainy Hall one would be...something. -.-

Isn't the door in the Entrance Hall is opened in one if the endings? Daniel walks towards it as light shine through the opened door, daylight, and not as it would if it led to the Rainy Hall.

Yeah, I've always thought the open gate in Entrance Hall at the end depicted the outside, that and the name of the map also suggested that this hall was the main entrance to the castle.

The only thing that bothers me is Daniels actions before the player gets control of him (before the game actually starts). It is evident that he takes the Damascus Rose potion to forget his memory in an area towards the end of the game (due to the purple/pink trail on the floor/journal entries that trail all the way to the inner sanctum, which I assume Alexander locks himself in for the ritual). If this were the case, then he intentionally re locks all doors and un-solves all puzzles between there and the intro hall where we find him. Its the only logical explanation I can think of.

Tl;dr - Scumbag Daniel makes the game harder.

(06-03-2012, 09:31 PM)andyrockin123 Wrote: [ -> ]The only thing that bothers me is Daniels actions before the player gets control of him (before the game actually starts). It is evident that he takes the Damascus Rose potion to forget his memory in an area towards the end of the game (due to the purple/pink trail on the floor/journal entries that trail all the way to the inner sanctum, which I assume Alexander locks himself in for the ritual). If this were the case, then he intentionally re locks all doors and un-solves all puzzles between there and the intro hall where we find him. Its the only logical explanation I can think of.

Tl;dr - Scumbag Daniel makes the game harder.

Hang on...didn't he consume the potion in the room where he wrote the note to himself?

(06-03-2012, 09:33 PM)Prelauncher Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-03-2012, 09:31 PM)andyrockin123 Wrote: [ -> ]

Hang on...didn't he consume the potion in the room where he wrote the note to himself?

There are similar trails in the dungeon/choir to the ones in the intro map, which now that I think about it could be for the prisoners. Anyways, it still doesn't explain why there is a note from his journal in the room before the inner Sanctum. I doubt Alexander would spread the notes around, so I'm pretty sure that from notes/flashbacks, Daniel had previous access to all the areas he visited from the intro all the way to the sanctum; so my point still stands: why is everything locked and unsolved? Why does Agrippa greet you like you've never met before? Although it's a large castle, there's a pretty linear line from intro to the sanctum.

tl;dr - I am confuz