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(09-02-2013, 12:09 PM)Scraper Wrote: [ -> ]Quality over quantity.

Even if the game lasts for 100 hours, but is nothing but boring and bad in every possible way, is it worth it?

No, but a game with 100 hours of interesting story.
We are not talking about "stretching". A game could have a very long duration of quality!
@ Goog: Games that last hundreds of hours do so because of gameplay, not story.

A game that lasts 100 full of story is almost guaranteed to be a bloated and woefully boring game.

The Elder Scrolls Games last a lot because there's so much to do, not because the stories last 100 plus hours. In Oblivion I was done with the guilds i liked in under 60 hours, the other 350 plus hours were from personal role playing.

All the game that are focused on story and atmosphere are generally shorter because the writers don't want the story or atmosphere to hang about too long.

What book have you read that has taken you 100 hours? I can't think of a single one and I read meaty novels.

But back to my narrative/atmosphere focused games point. The Last Of Us lasts a cool 14-16 hours. Throughout the journey you feel mentally tired as the game goes along, not because it's long but because they paced the story and events perfectly.

You on the other hand, Goog (can I call you Goog?) want them to artificially extend the game with unneeded exposition and puzzles. That's a massive no-no and a clear cut definition of stretching.
(09-02-2013, 05:28 PM)Nuits Grace Wrote: [ -> ]@ Goog: Games that last hundreds of hours do so because of gameplay, not story.

A game that lasts 100 full of story is almost guaranteed to be a bloated and woefully boring game.

The Elder Scrolls Games last a lot because there's so much to do, not because the stories last 100 plus hours. In Oblivion I was done with the guilds i liked in under 60 hours, the other 350 plus hours were from personal role playing.

All the game that are focused on story and atmosphere are generally shorter because the writers don't want the story or atmosphere to hang about too long.

This isn't true. It's not only about the story, it's about the whole game. And when you need an half hour per puzzle, it's even good. Remember the generator repair in Penumbra Overture, which took you very much time! And there's nothing about story, but this procedure is a part of it. Sometimes it's also good to stop the story and let the player alone, chilling, thinking and enjoy the atmosphere. That's what even a role playing game does. Not every optional quest is part of the main story, but part of the game like puzzles. I can jut talk about Gothic, which is about story and atmosphere and 100 hours long. So it's wrong that games focused on story and atmosphere are generally shorter.

What I also want to say is, that a good game represent a story very slowly and at the beginning you doesn't even know anything about the story. As more you explore the game and come around the world, as more you will confronted to the story content. No game will tell you the complete story at one piece!

And RPGs like that are not stretched, even when they are 100 hours long.

(09-02-2013, 05:28 PM)Nuits Grace Wrote: [ -> ]You on the other hand, Goog (can I call you Goog?) want them to artificially extend the game with unneeded exposition and puzzles. That's a massive no-no and a clear cut definition of stretching.

As I said before, no game should be just about story. Then you can play Dear Esther...
A game should be diversified and that means chilling moments without story, puzzles where you have to think or other interesting stuff. You always follow the story, but slowly and with much other work in between.
When I just want a pure story, I could read a book. But I want to play a game and that means there must be a lot more to do along the main story.
I think you misunderstood me.

To sum up what I said:

Games that are either about the story or atmosphere usually are shorter because they are focused on those two things. You can't keep a person interested for 100 hours in a story. It's bloated and clunky. A main quest in an rpg is usually under 60 hours (without taking into consideration player skill, wandering, farming). I can't think of a single game or novel that continued the story for over 100 hours of playtime/readtime. Like I said. RPG games last a lot because they revolve around the gameplay and then the story. During those hours they aren't attacking you with plot detail after plot detail; they are often just giving you something to do. All the Final Fantasy games i've played have last between 30 and 60 hours, same with The Elder Scrolls games and such. I have played them BEYOND the endings BECAUSE of gameplay. Not because they made the story drone on and on but because they had a lot of replayablity after finishing the games.


You said: "A good horror game should be longer than 10 hours to get a long experience as possible. They could add more/trickier puzzles to let you take more time. Without enhancing the story or environments!"

Seems to me that you would like them to needlessly stretch the game so it's longer and your perception of length is satisfied.

The length for A:AMFP sounds good for the genre. It IS a horror game that's focused on atmosphere. Why should they make it 20 hours long when at that time they would have exhausted all their scares and atmosphere and then it'd turn into a walking simulator?
This is extremely depressing. Have have been waiting for years for this game just to hear this. Well this is the scariest thing for sure. Yes i know it's about quality and not quantity. But 5 hours is nothing. Before i know it the game will end before i even have an attachment to the world. God i'm without words... I would cancel my pre-order but it's an Amnesia game and if this one goes well we may get a better one. And hey i'm not saying the game will be bad, i bet it will be very good. But 5 hours is just terrifying.
(09-02-2013, 11:13 PM)Stayler Wrote: [ -> ]This is extremely depressing. Have have been waiting for years for this game just to hear this. Well this is the scariest thing for sure. Yes i know it's about quality and not quantity. But 5 hours is nothing. Before i know it the game will end before i even have an attachment to the world. God i'm without words... I would cancel my pre-order but it's an Amnesia game and if this one goes well we may get a better one. And hey i'm not saying the game will be bad, i bet it will be very good. But 5 hours is just terrifying.

The Final game went to Frictional in February. The development began in October/November 2011. So from those months to February 2013, the game was only in development for a year and 3 months/ 4 months. TheChineseRoom has not made any horror games. This was their first time, and they had to be tasked with making a follow up to one of the scariest games of all time. Both TCR and Frictional are very small indie teams. Also, the game is 20$. Not trying to be rude, but how can you expect any more than 5-6 hours? Plus it depends on how you play. How long did you expect it to be?
(09-02-2013, 09:07 PM)Nuits Grace Wrote: [ -> ]I think you misunderstood me.

To sum up what I said:

Games that are either about the story or atmosphere usually are shorter because they are focused on those two things. You can't keep a person interested for 100 hours in a story. It's bloated and clunky. A main quest in an rpg is usually under 60 hours (without taking into consideration player skill, wandering, farming). I can't think of a single game or novel that continued the story for over 100 hours of playtime/readtime. Like I said. RPG games last a lot because they revolve around the gameplay and then the story.

I understand you, but it's not correct. There are RPGs where story and atmosphere comes first and interested me along the complete game. Story telling is just slower and more cryptic to increase impact when it's time. Amnesia is going the same way, it begins very slow and you doesn't even know where you are and why. And as deeper you walk into the castle as more you will get confronted with the story. RPGs I know are doing the same.

(09-02-2013, 09:07 PM)Nuits Grace Wrote: [ -> ]You said: "A good horror game should be longer than 10 hours to get a long experience as possible. They could add more/trickier puzzles to let you take more time. Without enhancing the story or environments!"

Seems to me that you would like them to needlessly stretch the game so it's longer and your perception of length is satisfied.

Is the first Amnesia stretched? Is Silent Hill stretched? No. Is even Gothic (as a RPG) stretched? No.
You see it's possible to make games as much longer than 10 hours where nothing is stretched.

To tell a story doesn't mean to throw letters of texts on you to read, where all core content is told in under two hours. When you tell a story right, you have to choose when you tell which part and how. Not by note reading or cutscenes! Story should turn out by advance.


(09-02-2013, 09:07 PM)Nuits Grace Wrote: [ -> ]The length for A:AMFP sounds good for the genre. It IS a horror game that's focused on atmosphere. Why should they make it 20 hours long when at that time they would have exhausted all their scares and atmosphere and then it'd turn into a walking simulator?

Again. Silent Hill is scary for the complete game, and it focus on atmosphere for the complete game. As more locations there are, as more it scares you instead to be a walking simulator. It's just an example that games where story and atmosphere comes first not automatically must be short.

I can mention an adventure which is about 70 hours long and never lose interest. This game is "Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine" and it's about story with grandious atmosphere! The impact won't even lost when solving puzzles - in contrary!


(09-02-2013, 11:13 PM)Stayler Wrote: [ -> ]This is extremely depressing. Have have been waiting for years for this game just to hear this. Well this is the scariest thing for sure. Yes i know it's about quality and not quantity. But 5 hours is nothing. Before i know it the game will end before i even have an attachment to the world. God i'm without words... I would cancel my pre-order but it's an Amnesia game and if this one goes well we may get a better one. And hey i'm not saying the game will be bad, i bet it will be very good. But 5 hours is just terrifying.

Correct.
@ Goog: What rpgs are those?

I can't think of a single rpg where gameplay isn't first.

Final Fantasy is story focused and they know to make it interesting without it being drawn out. Plus it's FF, so they focus a LOT on the combat system and leveling mechanics, ie gameplay.

And Amnesia, and all Frictional games so far, is HEAVILY inspired by Lovecraft's works, which were often SHORT stories. I can only think of two Lovecraft novelettes and a handful of longer than usual short stories. So it makes sense that their horror games aren't long. Also makes sense because horror games need to be short because if the horror sticks around for far too long then it turns boring.

Yes, I know. You can play many games upwards of 100 hours. I do that too. But that's because of GAMEPLAY. Not because the story lasts for 100 hours. Games that are specifically interested in giving the player a story (not rpgs) are usually shorter than rpgs BECAUSE they are focused on a story. All the TES games have a lot of lore and have long quest chains but their focus is NOT the story, it's the gameplay. When playing, say Morrowind, you receive a bit of story content and then are thrown into the world to experience the world through exploration (gameplay).

And you're saying you want them to add puzzles they didn't bother designing in the first place just so the game is longer...that's called stretching the game for no reason. First Amnesia game was 2 hours too long. That fetch quest near the end made me face desk. Hard. They made A:AMFP 4 to 6 hours long because they think that's the best thing they could do for the experience. Again, horror games shouldn't be long. So they wittingly made it that long so the experience is optimal...why do you want it longer? Do you not trust TCR and FG? And besides, we're missing a massive point here...the game hasn't released yet! You can't judge something that you haven't experienced yet. So relax.

And usually when games capture your interest is BECAUSE of the gameplay. You're missing that point. You said :"No, but a game with 100 hours of interesting story."

Having a game with 100 HOURS of story content is the definition of bloated. 100 hours of GAMEPLAY is another thing. It's a distinction you're having issues with.

Now a quote from The Man Himself:

“Atmosphere, not action, is the great desideratum of weird fiction. Indeed, all that a wonder story can ever be is a vivid picture of a certain type of human mood. The moment it tries to be anything else it becomes cheap, puerile, and unconvincing. Prime emphasis should be given to subtle suggestion - imperceptible hints and touches of selective associative detail which express shadings of mood and build up a vague illusion of the strange reality of the unreal. Avoid bald catalogues of incredible happenings which can have no substance or meaning apart from a sustaining cloud of colour and symbolism.”

- Lovecraft

Now...do you want more unneeded action (puzzles) to disturb what TRC made?
(09-02-2013, 11:13 PM)Stayler Wrote: [ -> ]This is extremely depressing. Have have been waiting for years for this game just to hear this. Well this is the scariest thing for sure. Yes i know it's about quality and not quantity. But 5 hours is nothing.

I was also surprised by the only 5 hours of gameplay, but hell, if they spent so much time on AMFP, it's probably because they've done something else to make up for the smaller duration Smile
Quote:Again. Silent Hill is scary for the complete game, and it focus on atmosphere for the complete game. As more locations there are, as more it scares you instead to be a walking simulator. It's just an example that games where story and atmosphere comes first not automatically must be short.


The Silent Hill games are pretty short, themselves. Probably comparable in length to the first Amnesia. Silent Hill 2 would probably take someone around 6-10 hours at most on their first playthrough. The things that make these games so long are the standard survival horror mechanics, not so much the direct story or exploration content.


I'd argue these could be better experiences overall with tighter pacing - especially Silent Hill 4: The Room (which, despite its uneven second half, is still one of my favorite games.)


I'm glad that A Machine for Pigs is apparently, just as long as it needs to be, likely without filler content. 5-6 hours is _plenty_ of time to spend in a world and get an attachment. Good films manage this in 2 hours or less, usually.

I think it would be awesome if it became a bit more popular to make shorter, well paced games and release them for a price more reasonable than 60 dollars.
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