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Amnesia - problems with getting scared? - Istrebitel - 07-04-2011
Greetings.
Now, first word - i never before liked horror movies or games. Ever. I laugh at any horror movies and generally consider them silly because either:
a) They are built on cliches, with people doing stupid things, people in bizzare unreallistic situations, etc.
b) The movie is just gore and blood that makes me sick, not scared. I dont like to watch a man being torn apart, or eaten alive bit by bit, or mutilated or something like it. It doesnt make me fear, it just isnt pleasant, its like drinking piss or eating live cockroaches... You cant really call it 'fear' if its just disgusting to your taste...
c) I just know they dont exist. Period. They are actors in costumes. They dont really die, its not real blood. Etc...
However, this game did get me. Got me seriously. I never felt THAT good from experiencing true fear.... and thats in a computer reality. Maybe i just "feel" it better when i'm the actor, not someone on the screen, maybe i have a good sound system and a good dark room to play the game in, alone, unlike cinema where ppl sit around and chat or eat popcorn... I really liked how they tell you in the beginning "dont try to win - try to immerse yourself.
However, there are still problems for with being scared or immersing in this game. And i cannot say its unique in such sense - some of these points are much more apparent in other games. This is actually VERY good, VERY well done game compared to most of the market filler stuff.
I'd like to point them out and hear your opinion on that.
1) Instant-travel doors between levels.
Well, that's it. Sometimes game forbids you to go back, but often you know you can just run away and touch the door and you're safe. Its like a children game where you reach and object and you cannot be tagged. Its very counter-productive to the game idea of being in danger, since you KNOW you are NOT if you have a clear path to the level-changing door.
2) There is always a way out.
I never liked quests, but in my childhood when all we got in Russia to play with were crap "52 in 1" cd's of ripped games on unknown to us english (if ure lukcy, otherwise could be german or japanese or whatever) language. So i played what i got, and played different geanra.
So, i came about one great game known as "Sam&Max Hit the Road".
Its a 2d quest, where you have a view from the side. It's a childish quest with cartoony characters where you cannot die and there are no moments where you must act very fast or its game over. However, it does have one thing common games never have:
DEAD ENDS!
The very first room you start in, if you leave it without looking into your mouse hole (or some dark place in your room), and taking money (or a lens, i dont remember), you will, after playing for several hours, understand that you CANNOT go further. You are in a DEAD end. Because you did something wrong. And you have to start it ALL OVER AGAIN! Yep dude. You screwed that over. Noone's going to pat you over the head or lead you by the hand to the ending. Deserve it or GTFO.
(Btw, i remembered another great game i sadly didnt play but read full walkthrough about and totally love. Lighthouse. Quest where you can never be safe. Where you can die from doing something wrong or you can miss something and then never be able to progress the game. And it has very dark setting too...)
I know today's games probably cannot "afford" it since then customers would whine and say game sucks. But this really made it feel like my choices in the game matter. It really made me feel like i'm in a real world. It really made me feel that i must think, seriously think, think hard, or i might just fail and have to start over.
Now, this problem of not having dead ends in nowaday games has the following result:
You can always, at any moment in the game, have a way to finish it. There is always a way. You just need to find it.
This then spawns numerous other problems that make alot of games just plainly suck or make good games feel less good
2a) Mind your own business, you will never screw up your game.
You can make bad choices or neglect the world you are playing in or just mind your own business, and never worry. Either you will advance to the next page of the story, or you will reach some checkpoint you cannot pass without doing something you forgot to do, in which case you backtrack and do it.
You can never actually make a wrong move. Of course you could, in Amnesia, run with latern on straight away, find a monster and die, but that's just going to set you back 10-20 seconds. Of course you can jump off the roof in FPS or let enemy shoot you down. Still, there is no way you will ever experience GAME OVER.
Now think real life. Like, you're escaping a prison. Slightest mistake - you're dead. Or back for life. Like, you're trying to find a way out of a collapsing old castle. You can easilly be trapped in a room by an unlucky cavein. And slowly die due to lack of oxygen (or be smashed to bits with rocks).
You KNOW its never going to happen in a computer game. NEVER. And if it is - you just have to backtrack 10-20 seconds tops and do it again. Worst feeling you'd feel is "why the fk i didnt save before that".
In game like Amnesia, this is especially hitting the gameplay.
After some time, when you understand you must survive in this world, you start thinking logically. And logic then tells you - you're fine. As long as you aren't against a wall in a dead end with a monster - you're just fine. And if you are - you will respawn just 5-10 seconds prior to that. You're fine!
Also, when cave-in happens or some crap grows in your way, elevator doesnt work, stairs back just crumbled, door is closed - it doesnt bother you. You always know you WILL find another way, WILL find how to fix elevator, WILL find an object to get back up the stairs, WILL find the key.
What if the key rusted and turned to dust years ago? What if elevator mechanism cannot be fixed and either you never go down, or you break it, fall down, and even if you survive you never go back up. What if there is NOTHING that can be used to get back up, and you'll have to somehow jump, get a hold of the piece of stair remaining and try to push up? And fail, and rot in here? What if you had to be watchful and take that tool with you, and now without it there is no way you are getting out of this cavein?
There is no fear of that. Because you KNOW you are safe, you KNOW the game has a storyline for you to follow that will NEVER reach a dead end. The biggest part of the fear, however, is the fear of your efforts being in vain. Fear of one moment that can screw it all. What if in the end, you will just fall into a pit trap and drop on the pikes and die, without reaching Alexander (or whatever the ending is, i didnt finish yet). What if you are now trapped here forever, and will die of lack of oxygen in a day or two/starve/bleed to death? You never have to think about it because you know its not going to happen!
Same thing in the room where you are chased down a corridor by a water monster. You KNOW every door is going to be unlocked. And if not - you either have time to do the action required to unlock it or you have missed it on the previous turn, you'd just have to die and respawn. And even that doesnt happen! Its a straight run to the exit.
Remember those horror movies when heroine runs from some Scream or monster and hits a dead end or a closed door, desperately tries to open it/find way in, and the danger is closing in, and then she turns around, screams, and then you are supposed to shrug and just hope she doesnt get mutilated right there... Well, at least there you REALLY dont know if she's going to live or not. Here you know you're going to live. You know the door is going to be unlocked. You will be fine. Thats very counter-productive to the "fearing you" goal.
You cant help to wonder.
What IF? WHAT IF?
What if this door would be locked? And the water monster would catch up and rip me to bits?
What if there would be no reagents left to make an acid?
What if there would be no way out of a cave in?
How come every time something "bad" happens (an obstacle on our way appears), we ALWAYS have a way out? Why all those bodies we find didnt have the same fate? Why the tortured prisoner didnt have a way to survive the torture and escape? Etc etc etc. It just breaks reality apart. How come they suffered but you ALWAYS can get out-of-the-jail-free?
2b) Often, there is only ONE WAY to do it.
Yep. ONE.
If you need to get through this thick wall or meat - there is only ONE way and its to make an acid.
If you need to open the lock - there is only ONE key in the whole world.
If you need to get from area A to area B - there is only ONE sequence of events to reach it (you maybe can swap them around, but you cannot skip the general route).
If you are caved in a room - there WILL be a weak wall or secret passage out.
If you are running from a monster through a corridor, there is only ONE way forward and its the right way. And it wont be locked, ever. And it wont be dead end, ever.
If stairs back up have collapsed on you - there is only ONE way back and it will always be present.
If you need to get past this door, the key is going to be available to you in the present accessable set of rooms.
Etc! It goes on forever.
Again you keep wondering.
Why is it always only one way out?
What if somebody would snatch that little key with him, would i never progress?
What if a second set of "meat wall" would grow, and i'm out of acid ingredients?
What if a door to the next area would grow with meat just BEFORE i pass through it and i'd never be able to get through it?
What if the third rod would fall into a pit/crevice/something i cannot get in? Or would get enclosed by this meat ball and i'd never know its there?
When you always have one solution to the problem, which is based on very seemingly fragile set of events coming together, you cant stop wondering what is the probability of all those events being true, and stop "believing" the story...
3) Monsters disappearing.
I actually do not know if its common behavior, i've read that monsters sometimes despawn... I dont know for sure. What i do know is that i have experienced it myself - the first real (=will attack if you aggro it) monster you meet in the game - the one in the set of rooms where you have to roll a wheel to lift up an iron door and drop down.
When you enter it, a monster passes by from left to right. You are frightened like hell.
After that i slowly, constantly barricading doors behind me in case monster tries to backstab me so i'd hear he's breaking the door, slowly walked around the rooms, memorising the map and trying to figure where can he be and where do i run to hide if he appears from some direction.
Then i realised i made a circle around the map. I then made another circle. Then i ran around with latern on. Checked in tunnel from the level-changing door.
IT WAS GONE!
WHAT THE FK?
I mean, this was SOOOO anti-climatic it just SUCKED. This monster was not there, ever. It was a vision? Well i'd agree if i didnt knew for sure it does despawn unless you run straight to it when you see it.
Why would they make the monster disappear? That place has alot of ways to hide yourself - you could do it perfectly fine with a monster roaming around. Why remove it? Did it seem too hard for a player to encounter "live" monster? Hell, its like some hours into the game, about time we get something serious hunting us, not just minor "boo"'s and wraiths! Why did they decide to remove that monster (and alot of other despawning monsters) from the game?
It really really hurts the feeling! And is counter-productive to the whole idea of fearing people...
4) "Safe spots" aka There will be no monster behind the corner
This is another problem of a game design. If this is an fps game, you are never going to meet an enemy that you can only kill with certain weapon unless you acquire it. If its an rpg, you hardly will meet a oneshotting monster in a starting location. Etc.
In this game, it means the following:
When you enter some location, and follow a tunnel forward, until you come to a crossroads, you're safe!
IT SUCKS!
I am wondering into the unknown. Dark corridors, haunting memories.... I must fear. But i don't. I'm perfectly calm Why?
Because i know that:
a) In this game real danger that i fear are monsters that can kill me
b) If i encounter a monster i must run from monster and hide
c) Therefore, in any place where i cannot run from monster and hide, i will never meet a monster! Since i'd have nowhere to run away from it if it would!
This just destroys the purpose of all those corridors. You can only really be affraid when you're out "in a field", and when there is no level-gate to save you. If you enter the unknown, as long as the door back didnt stop working, you can safely explore. Throw 20 grunts on me, i'll just run back and change level!
If you are wandering any kind of a tunnel, and know you have NO way back, you KNOW you have no danger ahead, until you come to an intersection. You will never meet an agressive monster behind that corner since its against the game idea! The game will only "allow" the monster to "get access" to you if you have a place to hide in or a place to run to.
This, again, works against the purpose of fearing the player... Seriously
5) Being caught/killed/imprisoned via script which is part of storyline and is unavoidable (variation - have to die to continue the storyline)
Sorry, this is just OLD. And stupid. And unreallistic. And again stupid. And OLD.
Duke Nukem 3D had it.
Half-Life had it.
Dark Messiah of Might and Magic had it.
Jedi Knight had it.
KOTOR had it.
Wizardry 8 had it.
Might and Magic 9 had it.
Metal Gear Solid had it.
Siphon Filter had it.
Far Cry 2 had it
Quake 4 had it.
Bulletstorm had it.
Sorry i didn't play that many titles so maybe list isnt that impressive, but i think a lot of other titles also had it in the story.
I mean, its like almost every game, almost every game out there with some serious storyline which is "leading" the player from start to end had a moment where the hero will be caught no matter what he does. No matter what he does. He can do brilliantly before and slay hordes of enemies and then fall to a simple trap. He can be 100% ready for it and still fall for it.
"Being Caught" script raises so many questions it just cannot be explained ever.
- why if i die 999999 times in the game in other places i respawn, but when i die exactly here i go on?
- why in 9999999 times in other places of the game i must survive to go on and here i must let it get me to go on?
- how do the catch me if i do everything to stop them/why does my hero chose not to fight in this case (like in Half-Life, if i mine the entrance to the room i'm caught in, how do they come in and not die? why in MGS i have to give up when i'd be able to live through it by just shooting them up with a fa-mas while chewing on rations? etc...)
In general, it just doesnt fit into save/load nature of the computer games. It even more doesnt fit into combat nature of computer games where you have to avoid death/being hit to progress and at one step you HAVE to allow it to progress and you cannot progress by AVOIDING it. Etc.
6) Death toll is nonexistant.
This game really made me scared of being killed. Not being able to fight back, alone in the dark... It did. It said to me not to save my game so i hoped that i'm really with something at stake here. Like, if i die, i have to do the level all over again, and maybe monsters would be in different places to surpirse me?
no wai!
When i failed to feed the water monster and got eaten while turning the valve, first i got a TOO obvious hint (i appreciate receiving hints on how to progress when you die, and the form of the hint is awesome, but its TOO direct! its like saying "do A to continue past this challenge") but i could live with that....
Then, i got respawned JUST TEN SECONDS BEFORE I ATTEMPTED THAT.
I mean, what did I risk when i was falling into water? Ten seconds of playtime? This is RIDICULOUS!
I mean, at least they could have made it very scary animation or process of you being eaten alive by a water monster (even without gore it would be possible, just make you FEEL like you are actually murdered... i mean they made it insanely scary to walk down prefectly lit hallways, could they have made death a little bit more scary?). So that you would seriously be terrified by that.
I mean, i am sure that if i'd fail a bit more in this game, i would stop fearing the monsters all together. Its like you just get used to that sprite of a claw on your screen and white message and another chance to do it right (i heard that its even worse - some monsters DESPAWN after killing you making your job easier!)
Every game that allowed saving frequently played completely different when you took away that option. Iron Man mode or similar ideas - the idea of you actually risking something, putting something on the line. When you do fear that around the corner you will meet a hard enemy and die, because that means you have to start all over agian. When you just got a very good item drop and you have to get past the enemy to the exit to keep it. Etc. That's why gambling is so addictive! Since you risk something!
I feel that in games that are supposed to scare the crap out of you, you must actually have a feeling that your character's life IS worth something.
And making death toll like nonexistant is just destroying that alltogether.
7) Scripted danger
You may get it right away from the title. Yep. Its all about the whole thing being scripted. You know that when you complete an objective, SOMETHING will frighten you. Not the second before. Not the second after. Right that moment.
Or it happens the moment you reach some place. Its like you already expect the door to open on you, or wind blow on you, or something happen when you enter a room. Not before and not after. Why did lights in that room didnt go off 5 seconds before you enter it, the one near the game start? Its like in movies, why does it always explode after the hero of the movie ran for some meters and jumped into the air?
Like in games since Doom - the term "Monster Closet" when you would take a key, weapon, and something would happen - walls would open, or something, and monsters would be all over you. After it happens some times you are never surprised again...
Maybe i didnt reach it yet (i am now at the broken lift), when monsters are wandering randomly and you never know where you meet one, but for me the world of Amnesia seriously lacks dymaic. Its just too static, too tied to my character. Its in a sense, too safe! I can always sit back and relax in a dead end room and never worry that someone will come and kill me. I can always stand near a quest goal and wait until i'm ready to "turn the quest in" to experience what happens next. I know that i will only encounter danger if i move to the point X or do the action Y and if i just stay here, i'm fine.
Compare it to say, World of Warcraft PVP server, where you can always be just ganked by a rogue. Bam, dead.
I mean, i know you cannot avoid scripts. But you really can make it more alive. ADD DELAY! Say, you can make a monster appear 30 seconds after player passes point x or does y. Player can be in any of the rooms by then. Some would meet the monster face to face. Some would be ambushed from the back. It would add REAL feel of dynamic to the game, it would be MUCH MORE frightening then. So for example, if you meddle too long with quest objective, quest related monster script would execute before you finish it - TOTALLY surprising you. You thought you can take your time - grunt doesn't agree! Run for your life! Or if you do it too fast - it would be delayed... you complete the quest, nothing happens, you already think you're safe now, you are relaxed - and then you're frightened even more since you are not ready for it! What about that door swinging open BEHIND you or even in a distance? Why those steps over your head never happen in a distance, only over your own head?
Right now, with scripts activating instantly, you just FEEL you got scripted. When you come to a piano and it BAMS on you you KNOW it happened because you got in range of a piano! If you'd never come close it would never do it! Worst thing - it makes you miss the fun! I had a friend try the game at my place. He completely missed the piano thing, and two monster appearances - when he was supposed to glimpse a monster going away in a passage to the right he looked left instead. When he came to the rocks, he didnt turn around in time. He missed everything. And then he had to go soon, and he said "well that wasn't THAT scary, didnt meet a single monster yet".
-----------------
Phew, long wall of text.
Once again, i'd like to mention that its not a rant. I seriously love this game and it is the first computer game to make me feel real fear and many other emotions in a very unique way (before, i played games just for fun or for competition...).
Still, dont you agree with me? Isnt all this playing against the idea of the game, against the atmosphere, against the immersion?....
Or maybe i am doing it wrong?
RE: Amnesia - problems with getting scared? - Hardarm - 07-05-2011
Cool story bro. Just it contains lots of spoilers.
Ok just joking ^^ But it contains spoilers as well.
When you said there's ONE way out, you didn't finish the game as well tho, you will see ^^ Because the game can have a dead end, yes can finish with a dead end. (it's true) But it's very hard that this thing would happen.
You will see, I didn't want to give spoilers though. Just watch youtube videos after you finished the game.
Didn't finish to read everything tho, i'll continue now ^^
RE: Amnesia - problems with getting scared? - Tanshaydar - 07-05-2011
We have a comedian in here, my country. An excerpt from one of his talk shows.
"A - I wonder, would my mom and dad laugh if I bring them to you with me.
Him - Have they ever laughed? Because if they don't have the functionality to laugh, there is nothing I can do"
If you don't have functionality to be scared, then there is nothing Frictional can do.
RE: Amnesia - problems with getting scared? - hollowleviathan - 07-05-2011
Lots of good points about the game design and how it appears through the cracks of immersion. However, a game that literally dead ends such that you have to start over is a badly designed game. There are plenty of ways to punish a player and make their actions have consequences than to GAME OVER, or worse, let them keep on playing when it *should* say GAME OVER.
If you forget a wallet of money in the first room, the game should make the puzzle requiring it harder or have less options for approaching it, not become impossible.
It would be very interesting for there to be multiple ways through various parts of the game, and punishing players who do not do the clever/"correct" path with more enemies, more goo, requiring a different/harder path, and less options for possible endings, that sort of thing. Those are interesting and potentially good (always playtest extensively, Momma Valve always told me) design decisions. There's just no good thing to be said about letting the player reach a dead end and not be able to win, and not ending the game and returning them to an earlier save.
RE: Amnesia - problems with getting scared? - nemesis567 - 07-05-2011
Discussing:
Idea #1: A good developer will place a door away from any encounters.
Idea #2: Such thing does not happen in decent Indie Games.
Idea #3: What really scares in the game aren't the monsters but the atmosphere. If monsters keep appearing it will be the time in which you aren't scared to certain point that you don't care about the monsters. Besides, the monsters AI isn't that good, you jump to certain places and bye bye monster.
Idea #4: So it is clear, FPS: First Person Shooter. Back on Topic, I agree with you, they should randomize a little more the encounters, in the half of nthe game you already know what will happen and when will it happen.
Idea #5: Answer to all your questions: Because it's a game we are talking about and also because a decent storyline must immerse the player in the character the same as the opposite.
Idea #6: Agree with you, there were parts of the game where I appeared in places I never saw before I died.
Idea #7: Yes, the game needs more random enconters.
RE: Amnesia - problems with getting scared? - Istrebitel - 07-05-2011
2 hollowleviathan
On point of showing game over:
Well, there were a LOT of games out there that had you screw your game and have no way to finish it but not showing game over right away. I think Space Quest or something like that series were very popular and were known to have such things. Sam&Max. Lighthouse. This didn't make them bad games. Or maybe i am wrong. I am not a pro game designer so i cannot speak authoritatively.
It is... You see... I just FEEL that it is too player-based.
It is TOO SAFE for the apparently falling apart/being consumed by some red matter old castle. Why would this thing always grow on the door after i go in and get all required loot and go out? Why would this cavein happen and seal off that room after i got what i need to progress from that room.
Its like the immortal question of the Doom/Duke Nukem and so series. Why is the red key always before the red door, the blue key before the blue door and the yellow key before the yellow door? Why is it NEVER the other way around? Think about it - in whole series they (designers) NEVER made us go around the door because there is NO key, key was ALWAYS there for us to grab. Did someone specifically plant them keys to make you go through?
Imagine you break in some deserted facility and it has locked doors, but you always find your way through since there is always a key around to open doors. After some times spent you WILL feel someone is toying with you! Add to it that path behind you shuts once in a while so you can ONLY continue forward (you would feel trapped and left to die, but you keep finding a way FORWARD, always finding keys for the doors or ways to pass through). You WILL KNOW someone is toying with you.
And now i KNOW this game is made up by human so its obviously it will be like this!
I just argue that i think it would be possible to make it less apparent that we are lead by breadcrumbs from start to end, that we are supplied means to solve the next puzzle every time, that we are given a way out of danger every time...
Like, simple example, make a locked door you are supposed to find a key for, but key is nonexistant and instead you have to lure a monster to that door so that it breaks it, then hide from the monster, and then go through.
2 Tanshaydar
No, as is said, this game scares me very much.
I just found out that i have too many ways NOT to get scared, and that's due to the design model (like i said, i can never fear a monster if i'm in a dead end no-door corridor, i can never fear a monster if i just came to a quest apparatus and didnt yet follow the sequence that completes quest, etc) and that lead me to thinking about what else is certainly flawed and writing this post.
Nevertheless, i do feel like this game is really great in delivering the emotion and i do think about trying out Penumbra series after i finish this, since they're told to be great horrors too!
2 Hardarm
Ending choosing is different from the whole game. Yes its good the game has multiple endings, if it has them, but i am speaking about whole world being seamlessly "on its own". Not providing you with solutions every time. Not providing you one way out every time.
I mean, it could even be done like this:
Make the story path unstable and deviated, i mean, not a single line from start to point of choice of ending to the ending, but numerous choices. Player would then not see some of the content (which is often why there is no deviation in storyline - they say "we can make X content for the whole game and you will see it all, or X/10 content, one for each way of going through the game and you will see 1/10th of it, and they chose the first so that player has more rich experience - this is why, for example, they dumped the idea of class-based quests in WoW). Which can be worked around by re-using the content later or in other part of the game.
For example, imagine such game plan:
1) Start
2) Decision point
3a) Player went in the left door
3b) Player went down the hole
4) Paths reunite
...
Now, imagine we need a complex puzzle to make the player seriously use his brain. We could safely use same puzzle in 3a or 3b since player wouldnt see the other path once he chose one of them.
Or, we could even go further - we could have two decision points and on first player chooses a or b (and gets puzzle a or b) and on second player chooses again and gets the puzzle he didnt get on first point. That would re-use "missed" content as much as possible, while still leaving space for choice (and a feeling that this world isnt built around player but has its own life, and player is just one another object in it...)
2 nemesis567
3) Well, this DID scare me, the atmosphere, and the fear that the monster is SOMEWHERE around, but when i finally realised he just DESPAWNED, this so hurt my feelings. I mean, all this time i feared nothing! Its like... anticlimatic? When you are wandering around and fear the monster behind the corner, you MUST be given a chance to see and be spotted and run away from the monster. If you never see him or he's just a vision, you will feel stupid for fearing him in the first place, thats all. Like our childish nightmares "there is no monster under the bed, check it" and then you check and then you make laugh of other kids who still believe in something that isnt there.
4) I think you mean to reply to 5) - no its not all FPS'es who have kidnapping/capture/death of the main hero. MGS is third person stealth action, MM9 is first person a team rpg, Dark Messiah of MM is an rpg/adventure/hack&slash, Kotor is a third person team rpg
Thanks all for reading and replying.
RE: Amnesia - problems with getting scared? - Brennenburg - 07-05-2011
Whoa huge post man.
RE: Amnesia - problems with getting scared? - Istrebitel - 07-05-2011
Sorry, i am not very good at writing compact messages...
Always feel the need to explain more or elaborate...
RE: Amnesia - problems with getting scared? - Tanshaydar - 07-05-2011
I should read more carefully next time. Now I get your points.
However, people playing games should relax themselves to get immersed, not for bitching. This, of course, if they are not tester or alike. Most of the people here I see are playing games with a constant urge of finding bad aspects. Why not enjoy a game purchased? Did they really give their money to only ruin all experience?
RE: Amnesia - problems with getting scared? - Istrebitel - 07-05-2011
I'm just speaking about things that obviously prevent me from getting immersed.
Thats it.
You see i'm not bitching about being able to fall through floors or walk on roofs or being able to stuck enemies in place - because if i never try to do it on purpose, i never will encounter that bug.
What i'm talking about are things that obviously disrupt the immersion, disrupt the fear, disrupt the feeling of being haunted. Thats it. And i cannot deny them, or skip them. Well, maybe i could if i didnt knew, but you cannot blame someone for knowledge...