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RE: Weapons or no weapons in horror games? - CarnivorousJelly - 01-17-2016
So... you're asking for Dark Souls but as a horror game? Bloodborne might be a decent fix if you have a PS4. It is an excellent game from what I've heard.
Also are you sure it's not your mindset keeping you from relating to characters with weapons? I mean this kind of mindset: "I haven't played the game yet but I just KNOW I can't relate to this character - oh great, she has a gun, my immersion is broken before it even fully formed". Approaching things more open-mindedly might benefit you! Maybe those games that felt immersion-breaking will actually be thoroughly enjoyable if you stop fretting over whether the character's ideal to relate to. If I nitpicked like that, every game involving even the mildest violence or played through the eyes of a male protagonist would be completely unenjoyable because it doesn't reflect me (and thus I can't relate to it).
That's one of the beautiful things about video games! You can experience something you would never experience otherwise without fearing long-term consequences. As the old addage goes, you can walk a mile in someone else's shoes, and that is wonderful for a whole multitude of reasons.
Sorry for the off-topic-ish post filed with typos (probably). Needed to get that out and I'm on mobile.
RE: Weapons or no weapons in horror games? - Cranky Old Man - 01-18-2016
(01-17-2016, 09:05 AM)CarnivorousJelly Wrote: So... you're asking for Dark Souls but as a horror game?Who are you responding to exactly? I was the last poster, but that doesn't mean much.
Dark Souls still has weapons. Just as I don't have guns, I certainly don't have any swords or armour either. Dark Souls is also in third person, which makes it at most HALF as immersive as a first person experience.
Quote:Bloodborne might be a decent fix if you have a PS4. It is an excellent game from what I've heard.I'm not after "fixes". I'm not a game junkie. I'm content with not playing games if there aren't any good ones to play. I've got real and actually important stuff to do most of the time.
Quote:Also are you sure it's not your mindset keeping you from relating to characters with weapons? I mean this kind of mindset: "I haven't played the game yet but I just KNOW I can't relate to this character - oh great, she has a gun, my immersion is broken before it even fully formed".She is a she, she has a gun (or a sword, or other possessions that I wouldn't have), she is seen in third person, she has dialogue, she makes choices that I wouldn't make, et cetera, et cetera. All of that breaks immersion. Does Super Metroid scare you? If Super Metroid was in first person, featured YOU, armed with nothing but a rolled up newspaper and some pocket change, no special abilities, and you could only monologue "Mommy!" in a quivering voice as the monsters came at you, then Super Metroid would be scary as fuck. ...because you feel like the monsters aren't coming at a game character - you feel like they're coming to eat YOU.
Quote:Approaching things more open-mindedly might benefit you! Maybe those games that felt immersion-breaking will actually be thoroughly enjoyable if you stop fretting over whether the character's ideal to relate to. If I nitpicked like that, every game involving even the mildest violence or played through the eyes of a male protagonist would be completely unenjoyable because it doesn't reflect me (and thus I can't relate to it).Next you'll be recommending Final Fantasy to me.
First of all, I'm not out to "enjoy games". That's not what my life is about. Games are something that you waste your life with. It's like if SOMA was a piece of cake. I bought it because I heard that it was a very TASTY piece of cake. That doesn't mean that I want to find out where all the cakes are and eat all of them, because ultimately cakes will make you obese. If I play a game, I want it to be an experience that I feel has some worth. SOMA explores existential issues, and challenges people to piece together a mystery, and is about unarmed survival. These skills can be useful after you've turned the game off, so I feel like it's been less of a waste of time. I feel enriched. This is also why I stay faaaaaaaaar away from games like Final Fantasy, because that's basically game crack.
Secondly, I can relate to a lot of things, but when it comes to horror, the more I relate to ME, the more horrified I will be.
The only other way to make me fear for a character, is if it has fallen afoul with the game creators. In Halloween, Laurie Strode is ugly and obnoxious, and the first Clock Tower ALSO features an ugly and obnoxious character. I don't feel like she "has the right to live", so the saving graces of the game creators are somewhat out of the picture.
Quote:That's one of the beautiful things about video games! You can experience something you would never experience otherwise without fearing long-term consequences. As the old addage goes, you can walk a mile in someone else's shoes, and that is wonderful for a whole multitude of reasons.
Well, that's nice and all, but as I said, that doesn't work for horror.
Every time I hear somebody requesting a gun in a horror game, I question if they're trolling, or if they have any clue about what a horror game is. Having a gun almost nullifies the horror in a horror game, because a gun is a tool of extreme safety. Horror games that have guns in them, has those guns only DETRACT from the horror. I don't understand why anybody of right mind would want to have guns in a horror game, if it wasn't for a want of lessening the scares.
Is that it? Is SOMA too scary for you?
RE: Weapons or no weapons in horror games? - Kreekakon - 01-18-2016
I can definitely be able to cook up some further thoughts on this topic given the time, but off the top of my head here's a bit of what I've thought of.
We can take a look at one of my favorite games: Dead Space 1 and also horror games in general. In Dead Space 1 you have weapons. You can kill the Necromorphs. The game is also obviously meant to be scary.
However the time I found myself scared (Albeit minimally) in Dead Space the most was when no combat was taking place. I could hear Necromorphs scittering around. I was suffering from insane visions of the demented crewmates.
When the Nercomorphs showed up however, I was in power. I could kill them. It was in these segments that it turns from a claustrophobic horror experience into an action game where you aim and shoot. Horror effectively takes a backseat.
Dead Space may be argued as a poor example since it is as much action as it is horror, but I believe it highlights a very large issue surrounding weapons in video games. The moment you hand players the power to fight back, then the players will be able to do exactly that: fight back. When you are able to fight back then the elderitch monsters which are after you become video game enemies.
This issue is also present in even the legendary Silent Hill 2. Normal enemies are not scary because you have the means to kill them off. EVEN IF you didn't had the ammo to kill them at the moment they were also no longer scary because the game has already established that these beings are beings which are capable of being felled by your trusty weapons. They had already been dethroned as a horror icon. Before you stood not a horrifying creature, but a 3d model driven by AI in the game's framework that you currently did not have the ammo to kill.
Some also may argue that this issue can be solved by lessening the effect of the player's weapons to heighten the tension and make the game less focused on action. But to this I direct you towards Alien Isolation. Once you acquire the Flamethrower, careful strategic planning can make the Alien never able to touch you again. The Flamethrower fuel burns extremely fast but like I said, proper planning will make the Alien significantly depowered in the face of the previously weaker player.
I suppose the point is this: Weapons empower the player and give them means to strategize against their foes. Once they have the ability to strategize, the horror icons in the game world become pieces on a chess board to strategize against as opposed an overlooming force. It de-horrors the icons which are one of the very important generators for the fear of the game.
Taking it even a step further: I believe that in Amnesia and SOMA, the game is scariest when the monsters are NOT part of the gameplay AKA stealth sections. Even putting them as monsters in these parts greatly detracts from my horror experience because now I view them as guards that I must avoid and a gameplay strategy element as opposed to a horrifying presence.
AMnesia and SOMA were always scariest to me from a narrative perspective which left things up to my own paranoia and imagination and also when I knew I could take the game at my own pace without "fear" of unwanted enemies breaking my sense of flow in the game forcing me to not get killed.
RE: Weapons or no weapons in horror games? - Radiance - 01-18-2016
I see that I'm the first to choose with weapons.
My vision of a perfect game involves some shooting mechanics but not from classic shooters.
Character is building his own weapons and from scavenged materials just to survive the environment.
This sometimes means he lacks the ammo and needs to outsmart the A.I. and explore as much as possible to find whatever has some usage.
Killing is not necesary, only if it needs to be backed up for the particular character in the story.
Weapons and ammo could be as discharging type to stun,paralyze disable or disorient the A.I. in environment.
Also using the level design itself could make desired effect.
Reason for that is:
when a person finds himself in life threatening situation, basic instinct is to defend himself the way his mind is giving the orders to the body . It's subconscious even if the player is cornered and has no where to go. He/she is guided by instincts.
For the gameplay, possibilities are: finding scarce items or blueprints to build something to delay attacks (emp concoctions, hand build items to decieve the enemies, to stun them, to trap them ...)
Items should be scarce so that gameplay is balanced. Furthermore, this has rewarding effect to the players who want to explore environments to salvage the loot to create valuable and life saving items.
Also, solving the puzzles to get the items is always welcomed.
Some gameplay mechanics:
-throwable darts to anesthetize the enemies permenently or for a brief moment
-emp concoctions
-traps
-self-made sci-fi weapons or based on actual electronics
While doing this, players gets the challenge as well the reward which should be significant in some sitiuation.
There could be some stealth element in the game while crouching and using the chloroform/stun when carefully approaching the enemies.
Implementing all this mechanics, player has some means to strategize while at the same time it gives additional depth to the game.
Challenge is present in every direction, however player must feel he has something to rely and survive based on his accomplishments.
RE: Weapons or no weapons in horror games? - Newsman Waterpaper - 01-18-2016
(01-18-2016, 04:23 AM)Kreekakon Wrote: A lot of stuff.
I disagree. I dont think adding weapons will demoted the enemies. From personally experience of horror games with weapons, they stayed scary no matter how many times I killed an enemy. I was scared shitless of the dogs in Penumbra:Overture and the Alien in Isolation was still as scary with the flamethrower as the first time I saw it. Dead Space oh boy, I stopped playing that game right after fighting an Necromorph. I think having less ammo and less powerful weapons will still make the enemies scary. It makes the player ask if they really fight or run? Of course players will try to fight if given weapons but if the weapons arent really powerful, it will make them consider the running option
RE: Weapons or no weapons in horror games? - CarnivorousJelly - 01-18-2016
In response to Old Man: based on your name I honestly don't know what I expected as a response, but that was rather cranky. I'd prefer not to derail this thread further just to respond to someone who prefers nitpicking over figures if speech and terminology rather than addressing the concepts being conveyed. If you want me to reply further, please PM me instead and I will gladly continue this discussion.
Back on topic! I had a late night thought about weapons in horror games, so maybe it's not that great of a thought... anyways!
When I think of video game weapons, I think of guns, bombs, big-ass swords, etc. - and I'm sure most of you do, too. The problem with that is the majority of our examples are drawn from games designed around making the player feel POWERFUL. These kinds of weapons, which give the player a sense of agency over the situation, are detrimental to horror because they take away that helplessness. Even the scrawniest snivelling mess of a player character becomes strong when handed a weapon of hyperdeath. As Kreekakon pointed out, an example of this would be Dead Space. The game is horror, but the combat sits firmly in the action genre because of the player's offensive capabilities.
Compare this with a, hypothetical, horror game where the weapon mechanics are designed to feel clunky and slow and awkward - like you're actually holding a gun for the first time and really don't know how to use it. No matter how much ammo you're given or how many guns/swords/fists you can use to fend off the monsters, you'd probably dread having to use them. You KNOW you would struggle in a fight and it would be better off to slink off in the shadows than deal with whatever's trying to hunt you down. Improvised weapons are great for creating that feeling: things like crowbars, rocks picked up off the ground, kicking and hitting (the protagonist of a horror game probably has no formal combat training), etc.. I imagine that's why Newsman found the dogs in Penumbra so scary; you can beat them down, but it's hard and the risks greatly outweigh the benefits.
RE: Weapons or no weapons in horror games? - Kreekakon - 01-18-2016
I am a difficult customer to please in this department. If you give me a gun that even HALF works, I will try my damn hardest to hoard ammo and make even a near useless weapon a powerful tool against the horror. This is a main reason why personally handing me any form of self-defense will greatly detract from my horror feeling because I will deconstruct it as hard as I can and make it it into a strategic tool of survival.
It's a very difficult department and balance to be drawn for me because my personal play style will be able to find the worth in even the most useless weapons and make it a tool which allows me to no longer feel horror. Buff the weapons too much and the game becomes action horror. Nerf the weapons too much and why give me weapons in the first place if they're not going to do anything?
RE: Weapons or no weapons in horror games? - CarnivorousJelly - 01-18-2016
Oooh you are a tough customer :p
How would you suggest going about disempowering someone without taking away their weapon? It doesn't have to be a gun. Would you use something breakable, atrociously low damage, noisy and attracting to the scary monsters, or something carried that you have to drop to open doors/perform physical tasks? I'm curious what would make a weapon into an interesting mechanic without killing the horror.
Amnesia actually has a pretty decent example where throwing boxes temporarily slows the monsters, but it can't kill them and you have to stop to pick them up, and you run slower when carrying them. Would you consider the boxes a weapon?
RE: Weapons or no weapons in horror games? - Kreekakon - 01-18-2016
Off the top of my head I would say that "weapons" in horror games (If you want to go full on horror that is) should be weapons that cannot get rid of the monster for an extended period of time. They should rather be tools that will be able to divert the monsters attention from you for a brief moment but make them still a very immediate threat in the surrounding area.
A layman's term of saying it is that I don't think that the weapons/ammo I am holding in stock should be seen as "Get out of jail free cards" that I am relieved to see that I still have several of lying in my inventory.
Also, this discussion thus far implies that monsters in horror games are enemies who try to kill you through some means. What about horror games that have opposition that hinder you through some other, but also terrifying means? It's a good thing to think about since it seems when many people think of enemies in horror games their minds go to Amnesia like monsters in stealth sections!
RE: Weapons or no weapons in horror games? - Cranky Old Man - 01-19-2016
Quote:Reason for that is:Yes, "you'd LIKE to" have a gun. You'd instinctively LIKE to be able to defend yourself. ...because that would improve your (characters) situation in terms of safety right then and there. ...but that's not the same as: "I'd like this game to have guns in it." Horror explores what happens when you CAN'T defend yourself - when you can't choose to fight, or isn't even given the option to choose between fight or flight. If fleeing bores you, then maybe you're looking for a game like Doom instead. Doom has some scary LOOKING monsters, but Doom 3 barely touched on the horror genre.
when a person finds himself in life threatening situation, basic instinct is to defend himself the way his mind is giving the orders to the body . It's subconscious even if the player is cornered and has no where to go. He/she is guided by instincts.
Fleeing is still a means with which to defend yourself: Respect the monsters as lethal, invulnerable killing machines, and stay as far away from they as possible. If they see you, it will mean a chase, then fleeing becomes your way of defending yourself. ...and if you fail that means, then you are greeted with impending certain doom. Impending certain doom is fine, as long as it's deserved.
...and it's not like it's hard to evade these monsters either. Even basket cases like PewDiePie, Markiplier and DSP, can evade them. In Thief, evasion was much more complicated: Players had to rely on shadows and the noise their footsteps made against various surfaces, and stepping on broken glass, or even metal flooring, meant detection and death.
I think I died ONCE in SOMA - I forgot to what. If the game gave me a gun in SOMA, I would try to drop it. I AVOIDED picking up the HUD implant in the beginning, because I didn't want any sort of HUD ruining the immersion, or telling me how many hits I would be able to survive, since it would ruin the fear.
Quote:Challenge is present in every direction, however player must feel he has something to rely and survive based on his accomplishments.I experimented with revisiting locations and lighting candles as game mechanics in Amnesia. If you could go around lighting candles, and had a monster that couldn't see you, but responded to your vicinity, then you could possibly "build" something out of the level. Opening shortcuts past difficult sections would be another way to "accomplish".
This is on top of the basic mechanics of exploring the area that you're in, and growing familiar with it. Once you explore the very first area in SOMA, you discover that it's just one big loop. This would allow you a way to escape the monster indefinitely if it would discover you there. That makes that area pretty safe, and it becomes an asset to you.
You could also maybe find/buy softer shoes, or darker clothes, to aid you, if you want upgrades.
Personally when it comes to horror games, I'm not looking to "accomplish". I'm looking for a bitch slap to my face. With the exception of jump scares, and deaths being completely random, the more the game makes me its bitch, the better. If you presented softer shoes or darker clothes, I wouldn't buy them or get them. I would probably open up the shortcuts, however, since those feel more "earned" for some reason. Repeatedly going through hard sections, becomes tedious if they can be avoided.
(01-18-2016, 05:50 PM)CarnivorousJelly Wrote: In response to Old Man: based on your name I honestly don't know what I expected as a response, but that was rather cranky.I am sorry if I have offended you. I just have very stern opinions. ...but after all, they're just the opinions of an old man, which you are free to dismiss.
In the end, after all our prayers and lamentations have been said, we all have to submit to the almighty will of Frictional Games. *bows*