(09-29-2012, 10:21 PM)failedALIAS Wrote:

(09-29-2012, 10:08 PM)BAndrew Wrote:

(09-29-2012, 10:02 PM)failedALIAS Wrote: Ironically, Newtons first and second law don't apply to our own bodies. Math didn't exist from the start of everything, nor was it discovered. Math was an invention, and may I say, a brilliant one at that. Also, the idea that the given solutions to an equation happen to spell out TIME mean literally nothing. We could be doing this in Dutch, and come up with an equation that's solutions spell out "tijd", leading us to believe that it's important.

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Math may fail with one using a useless formula, they dreamed of in a peaceful night. Math is our own invention, thus affected entirely by our own decisions and actions.

Newton laws apply on everyday life perfectly. They were used and they are used to send sattelites to space. Math isn't an invention. They exist and the humans discover them. And I think you confuse Math with numbers. Maths isn't affected by us at all. It's just us who choose to use Math that way.

I said US, no the rest of the world. Our bodies anatomy defies Newtons laws, not because he wasn't brilliant, but just because it is a controlled and living system contained within itself.
Algebra was devised(mainly) by the ancient Egyptians. If you think that there was a jumble of systems and mental devices for complex and simple experiences that may only be regarded as "problems" by intelligent life-forms. That we, humans, merely discovered - then you better have a PILE of evidence to back that theory up.

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An example of a Mathematical failing through human misuse could be something as simple as those faulty theories we are taught in elementary school, for instance; 2-4 cannot equal anything and should be ignored. While proper teaching of negative numbers will teach you otherwise.

(09-29-2012, 10:27 PM)BAndrew Wrote: I don't get it. We do not need an "intelligent civillization" to discover math. We did it on our own.

Secondly it's not the math that failed, it's you that you didn't use them correctly. The math are right.

(09-29-2012, 10:32 PM)failedALIAS Wrote:

(09-29-2012, 10:27 PM)BAndrew Wrote: I don't get it. We do not need an "intelligent civillization" to discover math. We did it on our own.

Secondly it's not the math that failed, it's you that you didn't use them correctly. The math are right.

But that's WHAT I'M SAYING! The math is simply a projection of our own understanding, put into practice! If our understanding is flawed, then the math that results shall be equally so! You cannot use a mathematical genius to preach how perfect the formulas are, without understanding how they crumble in the hands of an idiot!

Without a being to wield it, how is a sword useful at all? The same goes for these "Pre-existing Formulas" you stutter on about; they are useless without someone to use and understand them!

(09-29-2012, 10:34 PM)BAndrew Wrote:

(09-29-2012, 10:32 PM)failedALIAS Wrote:

(09-29-2012, 10:27 PM)BAndrew Wrote: I don't get it. We do not need an "intelligent civillization" to discover math. We did it on our own.

Secondly it's not the math that failed, it's you that you didn't use them correctly. The math are right.

But that's WHAT I'M SAYING! The math is simply a projection of our own understanding, put into practice! If our understanding is flawed, then the math that results shall be equally so! You cannot use a mathematical genius to preach how perfect the formulas are, without understanding how they crumble in the hands of an idiot!

Without a being to wield it, how is a sword useful at all? The same goes for these "Pre-existing Formulas" you stutter on about; they are useless without someone to use and understand them!

Again it's not math that is wrong. IT'S US WHO ARE USING THEM WRONG!
Also the only thing that can be wrong about math is the most basic rules which aren't proved. For example 1+1 = 2 isn't proved. You think it is true and with that in mind you prove other stuff. Well if you don't agree with that what can I say, FAIL.

(09-29-2012, 10:59 PM)Chronofox Wrote: This looks like an extremely interesting argument, especially since failedALIAS is in it. But I don't want to read through all 20+ pages to see what's going on. Can anyone summarize?

(09-29-2012, 11:01 PM)failedALIAS Wrote:

(09-29-2012, 10:59 PM)Chronofox Wrote: This looks like an extremely interesting argument, especially since failedALIAS is in it. But I don't want to read through all 20+ pages to see what's going on. Can anyone summarize?

I think what he's saying is that Mathematics is a naturally existent process that we humans discovered. That mathematics is perfect and whatever.



What I'm saying is that it was an invention by human beings, to solve complex and simple problems. That mathematics is only as great as we allow it to be.

(09-29-2012, 11:40 PM)Chronofox Wrote: Actually, I'd argue for the naturalistic view of mathematics. Even if all of humanity were to disappear from the universe, the fact would remain (assuming that there is an objective reality) that two plus two equals four, because if you put two apples beside another two apples, there would be four apples.

That said, maths problems and equations are more an unpacking of truths that are already existent within the universe. So, if you solve 3x = 12, for example, you aren't creating a value for "x"; "x" has always been 4 because putting three groups of four apples together would give you twelve apples. The same goes with theorems. Pythagoras' theorem has always existed within nature, it just took some time for us to discover it.

(09-29-2012, 11:42 PM)BAndrew Wrote: This is exactly my point. Mathematics doesn't need us to exist.

Quote: But... But what is to exist?