(09-14-2012, 03:06 PM)Statyk Wrote: We can re-rail it just fine. It might just be better, honestly, if everyone just ignores what Danny just posted.

(09-14-2012, 03:12 PM)Danny Boy Wrote: I know this is a flammable subject where a flame war can start at any second.

Quote:Here's why I think God doesn't exist:

1. God is perfect, So any internal/external change is therefore less than perfect, therefore God cannot change, Nor can he think (because thought requires change) he is just a enternal everything where nothing changes just the same.

2. Suppose somehow my previous argument about God not been able to think is somehow defeated, Then he must have had every thought about everything ever to have happened and still to happen in the instant he became God, But God is eternal so either he never had those thoughts (about anything and everything) or he always has those thoughts not in a cycle but a constant view, he is a spectator with no control because he cannot change anything to gain control. If the world was created by God then God created it to achieve perfection, but as God is everything it stands to reason that God wasn't perfect before he created the earth because he created the earth to achive perfection thus he was not perfect and thus not God nor eternal!

However someone could argue that he didn't actually create the earth its a metaphor for the universe, however the argument still stands.


3. assuming my first two arguments are somehow defeated; God used his intellect to create the world/universe therefore his intellect must be abstract from the world as we been the world have no access to God's intellect, i.e A sciencetist may look out onto space and say "i see no evidence of God" and the theologist may reply "thats because God is above/outside our universe looking in" but the contradiction lies ahead, how can one look into/affect the world/universe with forces that are abstract/non-existent in the world/universe. Its like me trying to use a microscope in a light-proof room.

4. If God is perfect, And God is everything even right now, Then the world is perfect right now, and the universe is perfect in all time to come else otherwise God (been everything) would not be perfect, Thus there would be no need for the Judgement Day, and if there was a need, then Judgement day would have to be today else God (been everything) wouldnt be perfect today and thus not God.

5. Morality, if God is equal to morality then God can't exist (P1) If God exists, then God is omnipotent. (P2) If God is omnipotent, then God has free will. (P3) If God has free will, then it is logically possible for God to perform some morally unjustified action. (P4) It is not logically possible for God to perform some morally unjustified action (i.e., there is no possible world at which God performs a morally unjustfied action). (C1) So, God does not have free will. [by P3 and P4] (C2) So, God is not omnipotent. [by P2 and C1] (C3) So, God does not exist. [by P1 and C2] Understanding P3 correctly seems, to me, to be the central problem for formulating this argument. Philosophers have argued that in order for God to have free will and for his having free will to not be a problem for his omnibenevolence, the following conditions must obtain: (a) it is logically possible that God performs a wrong (morally unjustified) action and (b)God in fact never actually performs any wrong (morally unjustified) action. And to deny that omnipotence entails free will just seems mistaken.

(09-14-2012, 03:21 PM)Kreekakon Wrote: Here's what one of my friends who is an atheist had to say on the matter some time ago. What do you all think about his thoughts?

Quote:Here's why I think God doesn't exist:

1. God is perfect, So any internal/external change is therefore less than perfect, therefore God cannot change, Nor can he think (because thought requires change) he is just a enternal everything where nothing changes just the same.

2. Suppose somehow my previous argument about God not been able to think is somehow defeated, Then he must have had every thought about everything ever to have happened and still to happen in the instant he became God, But God is eternal so either he never had those thoughts (about anything and everything) or he always has those thoughts not in a cycle but a constant view, he is a spectator with no control because he cannot change anything to gain control. If the world was created by God then God created it to achieve perfection, but as God is everything it stands to reason that God wasn't perfect before he created the earth because he created the earth to achive perfection thus he was not perfect and thus not God nor eternal!

However someone could argue that he didn't actually create the earth its a metaphor for the universe, however the argument still stands.


3. assuming my first two arguments are somehow defeated; God used his intellect to create the world/universe therefore his intellect must be abstract from the world as we been the world have no access to God's intellect, i.e A sciencetist may look out onto space and say "i see no evidence of God" and the theologist may reply "thats because God is above/outside our universe looking in" but the contradiction lies ahead, how can one look into/affect the world/universe with forces that are abstract/non-existent in the world/universe. Its like me trying to use a microscope in a light-proof room.

4. If God is perfect, And God is everything even right now, Then the world is perfect right now, and the universe is perfect in all time to come else otherwise God (been everything) would not be perfect, Thus there would be no need for the Judgement Day, and if there was a need, then Judgement day would have to be today else God (been everything) wouldnt be perfect today and thus not God.

5. Morality, if God is equal to morality then God can't exist (P1) If God exists, then God is omnipotent. (P2) If God is omnipotent, then God has free will. (P3) If God has free will, then it is logically possible for God to perform some morally unjustified action. (P4) It is not logically possible for God to perform some morally unjustified action (i.e., there is no possible world at which God performs a morally unjustfied action). (C1) So, God does not have free will. [by P3 and P4] (C2) So, God is not omnipotent. [by P2 and C1] (C3) So, God does not exist. [by P1 and C2] Understanding P3 correctly seems, to me, to be the central problem for formulating this argument. Philosophers have argued that in order for God to have free will and for his having free will to not be a problem for his omnibenevolence, the following conditions must obtain: (a) it is logically possible that God performs a wrong (morally unjustified) action and (b)God in fact never actually performs any wrong (morally unjustified) action. And to deny that omnipotence entails free will just seems mistaken.

(09-14-2012, 03:22 PM)Nemet Robert Wrote: I'll stay neutral.

If I pick one side, someone will flame me for that. And after 11 years, I've had enough.

(09-14-2012, 03:14 PM)Kman Wrote: Yeah calm the hell down Dan. I'm atheist, but honestly atheists bother me more than religious people do, and if you really need to see why just look at what you posted. Sure, I think a lot of the thing religious people believe in is a little rediculous, but that doesn't mean I'm going to run up to every one of them and scream "YOU AND EVERYTHIG YOU STAND FOR IS STUPID AND WRONG!". Let them believe what they want. The way I see it; as long as someone isn't tying to impose their belies on me, if what they believe in gives them some kind of hope or purpose then by all means let them believe it.