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RE: Goals and Storytelling - the dark side - 01-27-2013
we all have things we cant cope with, trash talk is mine, (hence why i cant play story based racers... as i flip out due to the trash talk!) hence why i have to stay away from many MP games, there is also that fact i still think that Mp is overused, i dont mind games having it, but, when it gets to the point were, like in many of todays games, SP is just a short tutorial for MP, or MP gets exclusive stuff, i get intensly angry, as mp, to me, is always going to be a waste of valuable development funds and disk space, and i really do not like the idea of it taking precedent over SP. to me, Mp should be limited to no more than 10% disk space (like it was on Duke 3d according to the decompiler) and should be budgeted as being 1000 dollars on MP development per 10,000 dollars on SP development, with all MP maps based, as with the old days, on "rooms" from the SP levels, i know Mp has been popular since Doom and Duke 3d, but its still a bit of a "bonus" feature in my opinion more than a Reason Detre like todays publishers see it, and i would much rather see the focus go into SP Development for better gameplay and better Storytelling as all the cutscene budget hasnt gone on making some silly little MP map or some "mp exclusive" firepower, leaving no choice but for "Satellite graphics" or those Horrid "first person cutscenes" (if im in FP i want to be in complete controll) wich are about as effective a device for telling a story in my opinion as chocolate is for making fireguards as they only show you one persons side of it. ive also just realised this has gone miles off topic...
sorry!
PS, @my red neptune, thanks for the futher clarification, yes, i am pretty sure i have completely misunderstood, i quess its a side effect of my brain only working in Binary. (black and white in other words) it wont be the first time i have done it, and certainly not the last, but, thanks anyway, i was worried my whole basic tenets of game design were, again, under threat, its bad enough infiniti ward murdering what i saw as "good gameplay" without me worrying frictional, one of only 8 developers i still respect, might be burying something else i beleive in. so, thanks again, its put my mind at rest... until sommat else spooks it.
TDS
RE: Goals and Storytelling - Statyk - 01-27-2013
It seems focusing on the bad more than the good has tainted your mind a bit. Spend less time thinking about how much a game is like CoD and more about what mechanics make it unique. People say adding a gun in Mirror's Edge ruined it. Well, for one, they're not looking at all the free-running capabilities and how it was a first of its kind. The gun was PURELY optional. They did not give it to you, only a sniper for a story-based point. It's actually excluded in an achievement to play without firing a single bullet because you have to drop the sniper as soon as you're done with it to progress and again, it's for the story. The rest of them game, guns are an inconvenience and you're better off without them. But sometimes it helped you in a sticky situation and it was nice to have it for a minute. Don't think about how the guns have expanding crosshairs, but how you can disarm the officer and kick him down, throw the gun and wall-run jump and drop kick the next one. This is what made it such a great game and I hate when people find one flaw and call a game bad =\ Mirror's Edge deserves more than it gets.
But yes, we are going off topic a bit here, apologies! Perhaps a thread should be made in off-topic for this. =P
RE: Goals and Storytelling - the dark side - 01-27-2013
indeed, an off topic section will be needed, as i am afraid that the explanation as to WHY i will automatically write off any game that is even remotely like COD in one of 5 or 6 certain mechanical senses, no matter how much it differs in others, as "yet another b****y Cod Clone MMS" is going to be a very large post as ill need to explain what i mean when i say i have "A Binary Brain".
indeed, we do need to return this to discussing story telling goals in videogames, and fast.
RE: Goals and Storytelling - Kman - 01-27-2013
If all games put gameplay first and put story on the back burner, then they'd never progress or make any more use of the medium than what's already been done. Sure the technology for them will become more advanced and such, but it'll still be the same basic concept of simply giving you a fun time. Why do you think there've been twats saying that "games aren't art" for so long? Because since they first came out little progression has been made in what can be done with them past just giving you a fun time. When the idea of gaming first came out this was acceptable, the technology wasn't great at all and was constantly changing, meaning that trying to give you an experience past that would most likely be futile. But it's been a few decades now, and still very few developers have tried pushing the concept of gaming into new realms, realms past just creating a game that's fun or challenging, but a game that makes you feel real deep emotions and have a stronger connection with the game, and the only way people are going to achieve this is through focusing on story. This is why I love FG so much, cause they're one of the few developers that have tried to do this.
You see dark side, if all you ever want in a game is gameplay, then you're going to end up wasting so much potential with the medium. Books and movies can't physically put you in the middle of the story and actually make you feel like you're part of it, but games can, and that's something that's really special I think. Because of this it opens up a TON of new room for creating stronger emotional connections, more immersive experiences, etc. and you're going to be missing out on all of that if you only focus on gameplay.
The most memorable games for me are the ones that are able to create this sort of experience. Take for example To The Moon, I will most likely remember that game for the rest of my life, and not because it had gameplay that was revolutionary or blew me away, but because it was able to give me such a strong emotional connection with the characters in it through the story, stronger than any movie or book had ever made with me. Now take for example TF2, while I still love that game the most it's ever made me feel is maybe joy and occasionally rage, but that's about it. Story based games, because of the medium they're in, can transcend past the parameters of not only gaming in general but story telling in any medium, and to me that's something really unique and something I hope to see a lot of in the future.
Now, I'm not saying that I hate all gameplay based games, in fact I love quite a few of them, but more story based games is the most logical and natural progression in gaming at the moment and I think it's the only way we're going to see any major leaps forward in what's possible in gaming anytime soon.
RE: Goals and Storytelling - Statyk - 01-27-2013
To the Moon is a great example of Story > Gameplay. That's one hell of a touching game.
RE: Goals and Storytelling - Wooderson - 01-28-2013
(01-27-2013, 11:54 PM)Statyk Wrote: To the Moon is a great example of Story > Gameplay. That's one hell of a touching game.
Haven't played To the Moon or even heard of it till now o.O I'll have to check it out.
Another example is The Walking Dead.
RE: Goals and Storytelling - Kman - 01-28-2013
(01-27-2013, 11:54 PM)Statyk Wrote: To the Moon is a great example of Story > Gameplay. That's one hell of a touching game.
Exactly, and if every developer put gameplay above story we wouldn't have games like that.
RE: Goals and Storytelling - Ghieri - 01-28-2013
It's more accurate to say Story(Less than, greater than, or equal to, depending on your design goals) Gameplay>cutscenes. Because cutscenes suck.
RE: Goals and Storytelling - the dark side - 01-28-2013
1st person cutscenes suck, i concur, as they are both boring (if im in first person i want to be in total controll) but they are also useless for telling a story, as you have no idea of the bigger picture behind it, only what "just kill him" need to know info comes from "the voice in your head". bad cutscenes that go "CLANG!" due to cheezy dialoque or really poor camara angles and broken animation suck as well, as do those cheap and annoying satellite view things...(if you are that low on budget, Dont Bother Making a Game!) as do cutscenes that are longer than most gameplay segments.
But really well done cutscenes that perhaps, show the enemies side of the story, or even give us info on what makes the villain tick, going right back to childhood, are a great addition to a game, as they not only give the player the all important Reason behind the villains goals, they also make the story far more interesting to watch unfold as you understand its central characthers better. it really does depend on what kind of cutscene is being used if they suck or not.
if there is one thing i Really cant stand however, is when they take a segment that would be Awesome as Gamplay, say, a Jet Fighter plane chase, and make it either a Cutscene or worse a Quick Time Event (Worst...Game...Mechanic Ever) wich is not only boring, but also so dissapointing it can stop me wanting to play the rest of the game.
would it really have been that difficult to use the multiplayer sections flight mechanics to make the chase Playable? of course not, its just the developer abusing the fact the "Marketing division" thinks "'murcian teens want the easiest campaign possible", and using it as an excuse to be lazy. its not "telling a Story", its "being lazy". why waste cutscene space with making something that should be playable, as a cutscene, because you are Lazy, when you could instead use the space to make the story more involving by telling us Why "Mad Russian General #897" blew up new york! whats his "issues" other than just the usual "iz russian, so, iz eeevil" micheal bay gernericisms?. EXPLOSIONS are Not Story! exposition, such as Bad Childhood, is Story!
If you are going to tell a story, Tell a Story! tell a story about what makes people do what they do! why do they want to blow up new york? whats the point in having a badguy if your not going to tell us Why he is bad! thats against all rules of basic story telling, come on, even the arthurian legends told us Why the Black Knight went evil... so why not todays games?
Consider that my idea of a Primary goal for a videogame story. tell me Why the badguy is a badguy, and not just becuase "iz russian". the more i know about the badguys past, his childhood, his life, what sent him evil, the more i can determine how badly he needs flattening. do it well, i may even feel BAD about killing them.
RE: Goals and Storytelling - Kman - 01-29-2013
Or you could just completely ignore my well thought out rebuttal to your argument and make yet another copy of the exact same rant you've made 100 other times, that's cool too.