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Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Discussion Topic Part 1 - Printable Version

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RE: Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Discussion - Bridge - 12-14-2012

(12-14-2012, 12:35 PM)Hirnwirbel Wrote: I think it is wrong to assume that they will remove the inventory system without compensating for the loss in another area of the game... but we won't know for sure until the game comes out, eh? Wink
I guess so. Anyway, the reason I'm so "worried" is because I specifically heard Thomas say he wanted to do away with puzzles as such. I'm not afraid of evolution at all, but I certainly am afraid of devolution. I'm not saying I prefer a cluttered interface or a lot of pointless interactivity either, I'm just afraid that this will entail a loss of gameplay elements. As you said, there are plenty of ways to "compensate" for the lack of certain game mechanics but you have to be sure you actually compensate, instead of just ignoring it. There's actually a name for this kind of gameplay that you may have heard: "emergent gameplay". If you don't know what it means basically it means creating complex situations/events/actions by using simple game mechanics. The first game everybody mentions I think is Thief due to the fact that there is a huge variety of mission types and objectives based only around a simple FPS control scheme and a looting/inventory system. IMO Amnesia and Penumbra had a very emergent design philosophy as well, but you can only simplify up to a point. After that you just start removing core aspects. Anyway, I don't expect my rambling to make much sense. I'm not actually worried at all about either AMFP or the "secret project" (at least not yet).

RE: Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Discussion - MyRedNeptune - 12-14-2012

(12-14-2012, 11:28 AM)Bridge Wrote: I think he (and I don't pretend to know anything about him) doesn't understand that the human mind can cancel out almost anything with a little dedication. It can fill in the blanks with some imagination and the experience won't be any less immersive.
Except he wrote a freakin' paper on that exact topic. Big Grin Maybe what FG are striving to do is exactly what you think they aren't doing?

On the topic of item interaction: I won't be able to comment comprehensively on this since I've yet to play Penumbra, but I know that one of their ideas is that the player avatar shouldn't express his/her opinion on events, objects, etc., which I can agree to. Of course, that doesn't rule out neutral descriptions of objects, but maybe they want to go the "show, not tell" route. The Dark Descent is not the best example of this, of course, but Amnesia isn't a perfect game, and I don't think it should be used to harshly judge their current ideas and intentions (which is what matters most, right?).

RE: Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Discussion - Bridge - 12-14-2012

(12-14-2012, 02:07 PM)MyRedNeptune Wrote:
(12-14-2012, 11:28 AM)Bridge Wrote: I think he (and I don't pretend to know anything about him) doesn't understand that the human mind can cancel out almost anything with a little dedication. It can fill in the blanks with some imagination and the experience won't be any less immersive.
Except he wrote a freakin' paper on that exact topic. Big Grin Maybe what FG are striving to do is exactly what you think they aren't doing?

On the topic of item interaction: I won't be able to comment comprehensively on this since I've yet to play Penumbra, but I know that one of their ideas is that the player avatar shouldn't express his/her opinion on events, objects, etc., which I can agree to. Of course, that doesn't rule out neutral descriptions of objects, but maybe they want to go the "show, not tell" route. The Dark Descent is not the best example of this, of course, but Amnesia isn't a perfect game, and I don't think it should be used to harshly judge their current ideas and intentions (which is what matters most, right?).
Well then I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about. BTW, you have to play Penumbra, it's excellent.

RE: Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Discussion - Googolplex - 12-14-2012

Did they really remove the inventory?
I thought the inventory is just disabled in special events.

Argh! How the hell did the player pick up items? How to combine?
I don't think the goal is that the player need to hold a screwdriver in his hands - from the beginning to the end of the game - to solve a puzzle!

An inventory is never a fear breaking element, in fact it is a must have in an adventure game!
The inventiry is my bag in what I collect all my items I need. Without the possibility to collect items, a game never coule be complex. And the puzzles are even more important than the horror itself for a good thoughtful game.

Thomas really said he wanted to remove puzzles? That must be a joke! Puzzles are the innovation of a game. Or should AMFP be more similar to Dear Esther instead to The Dark Descent?
I did not want a whole story game, there must be more than only a story!
Otherwise the game will not be worth to be placed in Amnesia or FG universe!!!

For the immersion, the player need to "think" more how to get forward. Puzzles should not be just like a "game element" it must be plausible, hard and logic to use physics and your brain! Puzzles should be inspired by Penumbra Overture (repair a generator, get the fuse, find the battery, climb into spider tunnel, set the power on, operate a crane or other machines, find the code for workshop, create your own fust using Baxtrin and powder, read user manuals, get the ladder down in refinery, get the engine for closed door, mix chemicals in correct order by reading a puzzle based manual, use ingame objects like planks to roll barrels over, get the key on the other side of the door, etc. etc...) That is what makes a game immersing and interesting. Not only the horror.

I do not want an intellectually story only like in Dear Esther, there must be more, much more!
No hints, no tutorials, the player need to learn thinking himself.

RE: Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Discussion - Ossie - 12-14-2012

Here's an idea - WAIT for the game to be released and THEN judge it. I doubt that whatever anyone says now is going to change how it's designed, so calm down and quit basing your worries on limited soundbites. Smile

However, if you have any real fears, why not email Dan:

dan@thechineseroom.co.uk

or tweet him:

@danpinchbeck

or tweet Frictional Games:

@frictionalgames

and air your concerns.

RE: Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Discussion - Deep One - 12-14-2012

I'm not worried about puzzles or anything. If AAMFP pleases both TCR and FG, I don't think we have any reasons to worry about. Good puzzles don't always require an inventory. For instance, HL2 had some really good puzzles without an inventory, it was all about interacting with environment.

RE: Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Discussion - Kein - 12-14-2012

Quote: Because the majority of games give you close to no options for interacting with your environment, and it's boring. Totally lifeless, you're stuck doing what the game wants you to do and most important of all - all immersion is gone.

Quote:all immersion is gone.

I dunno, I never noticed lack of atmosphere in Dear Esther.

RE: Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Discussion - MyRedNeptune - 12-15-2012

(12-14-2012, 09:53 PM)Kein Wrote: I dunno, I never noticed lack of atmosphere in Dear Esther.
Some people did. Er... totally not me or anything. Blush

RE: Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Discussion - Jack O'Lantern - 12-15-2012

Finding a lot of contradictions in your argument, Googol.
(12-14-2012, 04:28 PM)Googolplex Wrote: Did they really remove the inventory?

Argh! How the hell did the player pick up items? How to combine?
Followed by...
(12-14-2012, 04:28 PM)Googolplex Wrote: For the immersion, the player need to "think" more how to get forward. Puzzles should not be just like a "game element" it must be plausible, hard and logic to use physics and your brain!
And...
(12-14-2012, 04:28 PM)Googolplex Wrote: No hints, no tutorials, the player need to learn thinking himself.
By removing the pop-up inventory (a 'game element' that does not exist in the real world), players will need to learn to think for themselves. Players will go into the game, realise that there is no classical inventory system and react exactly as you have: "Argh! How the hell do I pick up items! How do I combine?!". They will be stripped of the simple 'collect, drag-and-drop and combine' element, and will be forced to apply logical, real-life thinking to the puzzles and dilemmas. To take the words from your mouth, the player will "need to "think" more how to get forward" and "learn thinking himself" to solve puzzles that are "plausible, hard and logical, and use physics and your brain".


I, for one, can't wait to see where they take it.

RE: Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Discussion - ElectricRed - 12-15-2012

Has anyone seen the inventory system in the game "Miasmata?" The main character opens up a journal in front of the screen and the game doesn't pause. The player can look up from the journal at any time/ In the journal there are pouches for medicine, items, etc. Maybe they will do something like that.