(02-19-2013, 07:15 PM)Minecrawler Wrote:

Spoiler below!

Hello Jens,
I'm following this game for a while and finally wanted to tell you something about "how to improve immersion" and also for all the others working on this game!

First I have to say is, that I played Penumbra first, then Amnesia and now Silent Hill.
Amnesia was a great game, surely. But you guys did something wrong in gamedesign with the texts and where you now are translating AMFP, I will tell you some important things to improve immersion. Because a major problem of Amnesia are the texts.
Penumbra and Silent Hill did it better, so let me explain early:

In Amnesia the texts are written as by a third person, not thought as the player's minds. So, it seems like more as a hint by the game instead to be part of the player itself.
Some simple examples:
"Find the key for wine cellar."
"Press J to open journal."
"Follow the trail and find their source."

Also do never use words like "You must, you should, you can" etc. Do never use commands for what the player have to do! That seems like to be in a game and it's killing the immersion in best grades.
Do it like in Penumbra, that the player is writing or thinking his minds of the actual situation or puzzles.
The texts normally should be like:

"I found a locked door into wine cellar, but certainly there must be a key to unlock it."
"When I press J, my journal can be opened."
"Hmm... there's a trail on the ground... should I follow it to find their source?"

That means to make the game more adventure-feeling with a positive effect to immersion.
Do use words that shows the player is thinking and obscure what to do. Do use words that shows "I am, I have to etc. and not You.

That's not only for the tranalstion, you also should check the original english texts by thechineseroom if they are well done or not. Please, that's so much important for the feeling to be in a game and not only playing it.

You did it right in Penumbra, so I'm sure you know what I mean. It's a little more work, but it's very important for the impression of general experience!
I hope you will understand my advices and what you did wrong in Amnesia.
I just wanted to say that before it's too late.

Keep that good old work on!

Thanks,
Minecrawler

(02-19-2013, 07:37 PM)Hirnwirbel Wrote: Aaahh yes. Surely professional Game Designers need the wisdom of some random dude from the Internet to tell them were they went oh so terribly wrong...Sorry, no offense, but your authoritarian tone made me chuckle a bit in this context

To me, personally, immersion wasn't broken at all by sentences like "find the key". In fact it makes a lot more sense that way. When I'm making notes for myself, I'd never write "I need to do XY". I already know the note is for me, why would I use a pronoun for myself? That just sounds terribly stilted. Instead I'd write "To do List: - do XY, - find XY..."

A person only uses the word "I" when talking to someone else about himself. So basically, sentences like "I need to find a key" means that the character of the game is talking to me, the player. That does not help identification with the character, in fact it firmly establishes the character as being a clearly different person than me.

As for tutorial texts, I prefer it if they're not trying to be part of the game world. Why would a character think a thought like "I need to press J" ? The key "J" does not exist in the game world. Pretending it does just feels silly to me...

(02-19-2013, 07:22 PM)Zgroktar Wrote: can't agree with you in this one, you are mentioning details so minor that doesn't effect the quality of the game in greater scale, Those things you mentioned are actually only at the start of the game, used only as a mini tutorial for the players. Amnesia is still much more superior game than Penumbra, and for me personally it is deeper even than Silent Hill 2 in so many aspects.

Anyway I personally appreciate your input, and I wan't to welcome you

(02-19-2013, 07:35 PM)crisosphinx Wrote:

(02-19-2013, 07:15 PM)Minecrawler Wrote:

Spoiler below!

Hello Jens,
I'm following this game for a while and finally wanted to tell you something about "how to improve immersion" and also for all the others working on this game!

First I have to say is, that I played Penumbra first, then Amnesia and now Silent Hill.
Amnesia was a great game, surely. But you guys did something wrong in gamedesign with the texts and where you now are translating AMFP, I will tell you some important things to improve immersion. Because a major problem of Amnesia are the texts.
Penumbra and Silent Hill did it better, so let me explain early:

In Amnesia the texts are written as by a third person, not thought as the player's minds. So, it seems like more as a hint by the game instead to be part of the player itself.
Some simple examples:
"Find the key for wine cellar."
"Press J to open journal."
"Follow the trail and find their source."

Also do never use words like "You must, you should, you can" etc. Do never use commands for what the player have to do! That seems like to be in a game and it's killing the immersion in best grades.
Do it like in Penumbra, that the player is writing or thinking his minds of the actual situation or puzzles.
The texts normally should be like:

"I found a locked door into wine cellar, but certainly there must be a key to unlock it."
"When I press J, my journal can be opened."
"Hmm... there's a trail on the ground... should I follow it to find their source?"

That means to make the game more adventure-feeling with a positive effect to immersion.
Do use words that shows the player is thinking and obscure what to do. Do use words that shows "I am, I have to etc. and not You.

That's not only for the tranalstion, you also should check the original english texts by thechineseroom if they are well done or not. Please, that's so much important for the feeling to be in a game and not only playing it.

You did it right in Penumbra, so I'm sure you know what I mean. It's a little more work, but it's very important for the impression of general experience!
I hope you will understand my advices and what you did wrong in Amnesia.
I just wanted to say that before it's too late.

Keep that good old work on!

Thanks,
Minecrawler

This is your first post. Way to make an impression on everyone. Hell, if you think you can do it so good, make an entire game with your own budget and release it a year or two from now!

You don't have a budget or any idea on how to make art/ 3d models/ etc. and code (or program) your own engine from scratch? Good luck with that.

(Also, way to go on your spelling and grammatical errors. You are a real 'bro', ain't-cha?)

Thanks,
Crisosphinx

(02-19-2013, 07:35 PM)crisosphinx Wrote: This is your first post. Way to make an impression on everyone. Hell, if you think you can do it so good, make an entire game with your own budget and release it a year or two from now!

You don't have a budget or any idea on how to make art/ 3d models/ etc. and code (or program) your own engine from scratch? Good luck with that.

(Also, way to go on your spelling and grammatical errors. You are a real 'bro', ain't-cha?)

Thanks,
Crisosphinx

(02-19-2013, 07:56 PM)Minecrawler Wrote:

(02-19-2013, 07:22 PM)Zgroktar Wrote: can't agree with you in this one, you are mentioning details so minor that doesn't effect the quality of the game in greater scale, Those things you mentioned are actually only at the start of the game, used only as a mini tutorial for the players. Amnesia is still much more superior game than Penumbra, and for me personally it is deeper even than Silent Hill 2 in so many aspects.

Anyway I personally appreciate your input, and I wan't to welcome you

I'm sure you played Amnesia first, before you started Penumbra, right?
And this is not just in the beginning of the tutorial, it's part of the whole game.
Well, there are more importand things to make a good immersion and that is just a minor thing. But you don't know how much just the style of the texts can influence the experience.

Everyone who played Penumbra first will understand my meanings and that's a general way to improve adventure feeling and not seeing the game as a game. I think, a game never should present itself like a game, instead it's important to mediate a feeling that is earnestly.

The texts are only a little problem, but with a huge affect to the experience at all. It's more interesting to feel like to be unknowing about objects and situations in the environment.

An other example is when there's a locked door:


"It's locked, you must find an other way around."

"It seems to be locked, perhaps I have to find an other way around."


Which text do you think is better for immersion and credibility?

But now I don't want to make too much off-topic, I just hoped that anyone of the developers would read that here...

(02-19-2013, 07:48 PM)martinnord Wrote: I think that the main problem with your way of thinking is that you fail to properly seperate Main-character and player. Being immersed into the game does not mean you automatically become Daniel. You're still you, but you inside the game's world if immersion is right. When you use "I", its as if the Main character's head is trying to force himself onto the player.

(02-19-2013, 08:09 PM)Minecrawler Wrote:

(02-19-2013, 07:48 PM)martinnord Wrote: I think that the main problem with your way of thinking is that you fail to properly seperate Main-character and player. Being immersed into the game does not mean you automatically become Daniel. You're still you, but you inside the game's world if immersion is right. When you use "I", its as if the Main character's head is trying to force himself onto the player.

That's exactly what I want to improve. The problem of Amnesia is that you feels like to be Daniel and not you. The goal of immersion is not when you play a game character. The goal is when you feels like YOU are the game character.

And therefore when I say "I have to find a key" that means I am in the game and thinking for myself or write my own mementos. But when the player said "You have to find a key" that means you are not in the game and the player is just talking to you.