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+--- Thread: *Spoilers* The Torture Victims (/thread-4484.html)
RE: *Spoilers* The Torture Victims - superluser - 10-19-2010
(10-18-2010, 07:06 PM)hollowleviathan Wrote: I strongly suspect that the killings ramped up drastically during the time that Daniel was there, to ward the active shadow chasing him.
Indeed. This is explicitly stated.
But Wilhelm kidnapped killed 100 people over the span of two years, and I doubt that he was the only one. That instantly doubles the murder rate of Bathory, who took four years to kill almost as many. At the very least, Alexander would have had two abducting at the same time, in case one fails for some reason (captured, killed, gets a conscience, whatever). When you're kidnapping one a week, that's got to put pressure on making sure the prisoner flow is stable.
(10-18-2010, 09:04 PM)Karkarov Wrote: Logic dictates he isn't going to get alot of heat from the law since there are literally, no witnesses, no evidence, or any sort of proof that it even happened. They are just "gone".
I'm not sure if logic dictates that, but I'm not going to get too upset over what the right word is here; your meaning was clear enough.
Even if they are just gone, people will notice. Especially since these are nobles. And yes, these are nobles.
(10-18-2010, 09:04 PM)Karkarov Wrote: Last thing you need to do more research yourself buddy. The Order of the Black Eagle was basically the ruling party of Prussia. When you are bro's with the King in a monarchy you can pretty much get away with just about anything. There is no "protection" to it, he was above the law, he WAS the law. Other than the one "messenger" he left to die in his cells he never killed anyone who was high profile. Wilhelm was a disgraced low rank nobleman, no one would miss him hell he took the job hoping Alexander would put in a good word for him, Wilhelm's men were just generic thugs and toughs from who knows where, etc etc. This isn't CSI Miami, there are no forensics, most of these people no one would have ever come looking for from the get go.
Presumably, you can't get away with anything, because Alexander had to lock up the king's men because of fears of an investigation. Wilhelm's men were the king's men. If they disappeared, someone would have gone looking for them.
(10-18-2010, 09:04 PM)Karkarov Wrote: Lastly the girl and her family were not well off. They were dairy farmers, they had a farm that accounts for the "large estate" aka house and barn. That doesn't make you "rich" trust me ask any American farmer today. Also they had just been killed literally within the last day or two. People may not even know they are dead yet. This isn't modern times people did live on their own and only go to towns and such once or twice a week back then.
They had land.
They were filthy stinking rich.
In 1834, almost all of Prussian land was owned by the nobility, especially in the north. I should actually qualify that by saying that these people would have been poor nobles, but they would not have been people who could have been ignored.
(10-18-2010, 09:04 PM)Karkarov Wrote: Also castle Brennenburg is basically smack dab in the middle of "Prussian control". Like I said the Order of the Black Eagle are the rulers of Prussia and certain distinguished members from outside the country. The reason I mention napoleon is because Alexander does it himself in one of his own memory things you find in the transept and clearly states the Order had taken issue with him. Am I the only person who actually looked for these things?
Brennenberg is not in the middle of Prussian control, it's way the heck out in Farther Pomerania (unless it was in Swedish Pomerania, an area that wasn't part of Prussia until after the Thirty Years War and thus even further outside of political circles). Alexander was way the heck away from any center of power, and was probably though of as a weird hick baron. That would have worked for keeping his reports from getting to the king, but it would have made it easier to put him on trial if he started killing hundreds of people.
RE: *Spoilers* The Torture Victims - Nospheratu - 11-02-2010
This story was made up by the writer, but IS based on some true facts and documented human behaviours:
1. In the stories' timeframe the Prussian nobility, which Alexander was a most high-ranking part of, could get away with almost anything, even kidnapping and murdering 100+ people. For a related story check out what Vlad Tepes (Drakul) got away with in his own domain just becouse he saved his country from the Turks (on one occasion he burned all the sick and mentally ill in order to make his domain healthier and richer) or what a seemingly pious french guy called Gilles de Rais did in his own lifetime. Want more? Skip ahead to Germany in WW2 and the concentration camps, about most information got out only after the allied liberation. How did they get away with it for so long (more than a million deaths in about 4 years)? Partly becouse the people running the country were free to make their own laws and partly becouse the general population was kept in the dark about the truth; also the ones who asked too much were disposed of too so naturally noone asked much. But enough of history, let's go ahead.
2. Since Alexander is a supernatural being which lives for more than a couple centuries, he has probably adapted to the society surrounding him very well and made enough arrangements not to draw suspition to himself or his staff. As a baron and jailer/peacekeeper he received a steady influx of real criminals, strays and war prisoners, besides that he steadily made his artificial servants which he put in to the surrounding woods, where they would occasionally kidnap some poor person which was unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. When questioned about this, he would simply have to reply: "I have no idea what those things are, but i don't have anything to do with them." He also needed human servants like Wilhelm to kidnap people, but he always made sure to dispose of them before any of them would blabber out something incriminating.
3. Some of you doubt that a person can become a cruel killer over the period of 10 days. I do not doubt that in the least bit, even for peaceful persons with happy lives and even in a matter of an hour or less. As any psychologist will confirm, sometimes it takes very little for someone to do horrible things; someone mentioned the Millton experiments earlier which is a great refference to that - sometimes all it takes is a command from above and for the torturer to believe that "it isn't his fault" the victim is in this mess (once again we could also reffer to the guards & staff in the WW2 concentration camps, who were merely "acting out orders"). If we further add the incentive, that if one doesn't torture and kill another person, he will be killed himself, then the most basic & powerful human (animal) instinct of self-preservation comes in to play: if faced with his own imminent death, almost any human will do whatever it takes to remain alive, but it will inevitably scar his psyche; Daniel even mentions explicitly that he "will do whatever it takes" to save himself, even torture and kill 8 people over 10 days, so yes - that is believable even from a scientific point of view.
Sorry for the longer post, i tend to get carried away
RE: *Spoilers* The Torture Victims - superluser - 11-03-2010
Ahem.
Before someone mentions Vlad the Impaler, note that (A) he had an army (B) he was fighting an invading army and © those numbers were written by a guy who wanted him to seem very violent.
(11-02-2010, 02:40 PM)Nospheratu Wrote: For a related story check out what Vlad Tepes (Drakul) got away with in his own domain just becouse he saved his country from the Turks
Gah! I should have posted that here, too!
(11-02-2010, 02:40 PM)Nospheratu Wrote: what a seemingly pious french guy called Gilles de Rais did in his own lifetime. Want more? Skip ahead to Germany in WW2 and the concentration camps, about most information got out only after the allied liberation. How did they get away with it for so long (more than a million deaths in about 4 years)?
Primarily because they had virtuallyliterally an army of thousands of people trained to kill with almost military precision. I've made a point that the events of Amnesia were in peacetime before. That's because if Alexander had an actual army which was fighting another actual army, this would not have been a realistic objection. Even if he commanded an army, an army attacking its own in peacetime would have resulted in civil war, since the external threat would not have prevented the populace from seeking out the king.
(11-02-2010, 02:40 PM)Nospheratu Wrote: Partly becouse the people running the country were free to make their own laws and partly becouse the general population was kept in the dark about the truth; also the ones who asked too much were disposed of too so naturally noone asked much.
Alexander might have had a bit if a free hand, but once he started abducting the king's own men, that's pretty much it for that freedom. The population was not kept in the dark about it, either. You had hundreds of men kidnapped. The people would have noticed that.
(11-02-2010, 02:40 PM)Nospheratu Wrote: 2. Since Alexander is a supernatural being which lives for more than a couple centuries, he has probably adapted to the society surrounding him very well and made enough arrangements not to draw suspition to himself or his staff.
Except that we know this is not true. The king's men were investigating.
(11-02-2010, 02:40 PM)Nospheratu Wrote: As a baron and jailer/peacekeeper he received a steady influx of real criminals, strays and war prisoners, besides that he steadily made his artificial servants which he put in to the surrounding woods, where they would occasionally kidnap some poor person which was unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Occasionally corresponds to at least a person per week in this case.
(11-02-2010, 02:40 PM)Nospheratu Wrote: When questioned about this, he would simply have to reply: "I have no idea what those things are, but i don't have anything to do with them."
That doesn't work too well when you've got someone yelling at you for a sky-high murder rate in your region.
(11-02-2010, 02:40 PM)Nospheratu Wrote: He also needed human servants like Wilhelm to kidnap people, but he always made sure to dispose of them before any of them would blabber out something incriminating.
The servants were given special credit and recommended for services to other noblemen. And then they suddenly disappeared? With alarming frequency?
RE: *Spoilers* The Torture Victims - Nospheratu - 11-03-2010
Let me again remind you that it's a FICTIONAL story
It was made up and written by 1 guy and it probably shouldn't be analyzed to such depths and extents, since you certainly won't find any 100% officially consistent things inside.I mean - even true & official well-documented stories in our modern times are many times riddled with inconsistencies, mis-interpretations and factual errors; so when playing a videogame which has magical orbs, 300 year old barons and walking corpses as it's main ingridients, the players should keep in mind that making actual sense of it is about as efficient as renting a boat with diving gear and then trying to find Cthulhu in the submerged city R'lyeh.
A few bottom lines:
- Alexander is a being from another dimension, who somehow got stranded in our dimension and is trying for centuries to return home.
- the only way for him to do this is to assemble enough mystic orbs in a gigantic machine and thus open a portal home.
- Alexander and his servants were somehow able to abduct, torture and kill hundreds of people over a couple of hundred years with the purpose of extracting their life force so that the Baron could live on and continue to search for a way home, eg. build the portal machine and find enough orbs for it to work.
- at some point the authorities got wind of it and started to investigate which forced Alexander in to a corner and kill off his remaining human servants.
- by a stroke of luck (or weird fate) he was just then contacted by Daniel, who had the last missing orb in his possesion.
- when Daniel arrived, he was so afraid for his own life that he agreed to do whatever it took for him to stay alive (mostly true human behaviour as explained earlier), including torturing and killing a couple of people.
- this was made a bit easier by Alexander, who (probably falsly) told Daniel that these persons were criminals deservant of their fate.
- Alexander's goal was always just to open the portal home by any means necessary; Daniel's goal was always just to stay alive, but after killing the truly innocent girl his mind finally snapped at the realisation of the truth - that he was a selfish and cowardly killer of innocent women and children; and even then his first thought was not of repentance but only of revenge against Alexander which once again shows his underlying personality.
- None of the above ever really happened, neither in Prussia nor in any other part of the world; it only happened on our PC's and even then it was really just a long string of one's and zeroes.
My 2 cents
Bye
RE: *Spoilers* The Torture Victims - hollowleviathan - 11-03-2010
I thought we'd reached a consensus that Alexander was close to being found out and blew his cover in the last two weeks to cover the final stretch. There's going to be a manhunt in the woods of large proportions for an entire family, and it's not going to take long for people to arrive at his castle, alas, too late. Would they even find him if they did? Who among them would be able to operate an elevator, even if it had not broken? They'll probably conclude that the unholy Gatherers invaded the castle and slew Alexander and the missing population.
RE: *Spoilers* The Torture Victims - superluser - 11-04-2010
(11-03-2010, 12:18 PM)Nospheratu Wrote: Let me again remind you that it's a FICTIONAL story
Well, that's fair enough. My original point was that regardless of whether it's realistic, the sheer number of victims make it difficult to actually take in the horror of any of them. Fewer victims would actually make it much more shocking, I think, because you could develop the story of who they were and what each one went through in detail.
RE: *Spoilers* The Torture Victims - sagdashin - 11-09-2010
After you saw those trees fall from a .. brute? in the woods when entering the inner studies, do you really think some of the kings men or millitia will try, or survive during the hunt for Alexander?
the shadow locked the castle at the start of the game if you tried to go out too. Alexander himself is under the castle in the inner sanctum, it's paincake to get to him
(your brain becomes braincake if you go through the castle, just look at me after finishing the game..).
RE: *Spoilers* The Torture Victims - hollowleviathan - 11-09-2010
To be fair, we don't know how extensive the shadow can be, if it has to withdraw from the front halls/outside to follow you onward and inward through the castle. It's possible the front door is just fine and dandy by the time you're thrown in prison.
RE: *Spoilers* The Torture Victims - Nospheratu - 11-10-2010
(11-09-2010, 01:24 PM)sagdashin Wrote: After you saw those trees fall from a .. brute? in the woods when entering the inner studies, do you really think some of the kings men or millitia will try, or survive during the hunt for Alexander?
I would say that it was the shadow felling those trees since a single brute probably wouldn't be able to fell a tree, while the shadow has enough power to destroy fortified castle walls, let alone trees. I also laughed at the paincake/braincake
RE: *Spoilers* The Torture Victims - LSunday - 02-14-2011
The biggest problem with understanding Daniel is that a lot of people forget the time period. 1839? Torture was still pretty commonplace, and the death sentence as well. If Daniel believed that all those people were guilty of the crimes Alexander claimed they were, he actually wasn't even stretching the law that much.
All the things in the transept/choir were actual torture devices from that time period.
Same with the argument of missing people- If they were mostly taking loners, the idea that they're 'missing' would have been significantly less. People would just think they'd "moved on." Especially after hundreds of years of people going missing in the woods; no townsperson would ever go into the woods, so logically, the people kidnapped were probably almost all wanderers who no one nearby would ever miss.