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+--- Thread: Amnesia: Justine Discussion Topic (/thread-7561.html)
RE: Justine: 10 questions. - PutraenusAlivius - 03-10-2013
1. She maybe regains her memory, and of course, her old self.
2. When they are saved, they are freed. Some suitors just go away to other places.
3. The second suitor was Basile, underneath the second level and with the second prisoner, Father David.
4. I guess FG was that lazy.
5. Justine is insane you know. And besides, if she wanna torture people, she have to make different entrances to the Cabinet of Pertubation so that no one will notice (or that it's quicker.).
6. She's probably too scared to come down. Besides, the basement have a graveyard. Would you be brave to come down if your basement got a graveyard?
7. Hell, i don't know!
8. It's either Justine or Clarice who did it.
9. That, i don't know too.
10. Justine tortured a lot of people (i guess, since she's insane.). Maybe they assume somebody got out. Or, they thought a guest/someone on Justine's house just happened to a woke in a cell.
RE: Justine: 10 questions. - xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx - 03-10-2013
1. That's an interesting question actually. It depends on how you define "insanity". Insanity can be caused by many things. Some can be physiological causes, like hormone imbalances, having a grenade splinter stuck in your brain... stuff like that obviously wouldn't be affected by an Amnesia potion.
However in Justines case, her insanity mainly stems from childhood trauma, namely from the psychological experiment her father made on her and from growing up without her mother. (although it is mentioned in the wiki that she was also already born with a mental illness... I think the details here are open for interpretation.) So if a potion makes her temporarily forget all those memories, it could indeed pretty much turn her into a blank canvas again.
2. Magic.
Or maybe the machinery was designed in a way so that the prisoner's restraints would automatically be released after a certain amount of time. At least for the first and second guy this could work since you don't see the exact mechanics around them and they could have then freed the third one. Also at least Alois and Basile have no business killing other prisoners, they just want Justine. And Malo probably went somewhere else to...do kinky stuff.3. No idea...have to play again.
4. They weren't exactly lazy, making an animated character just takes a lot of time compared to, say, a piece of wall and they only had one character artist
So making three enemy models for a small (and free!) addon where even the original full game only had two would have been too much work.5. Gameplay reasons I suppose...
6. Well, the door is locked and only Justine has the key. Also Clarice is her long time childhood friend (the only one she ever had!), so if Justine tells her to please not snoop around in her cellar and disturb her families graveyard, she probably doesn't even think of betraying her friends trust.
7. Gameplay reasons. It's supposed to be claustrophobic and scary. In terms of architecture - underground ventilation system probably.
8. Same problem as with the torches in the original Amnesia, eh?
Let's just assume she lit them on her way and that candles and torches in the Amnesiaverse are magical entities that burn forever.9. Yeah I agree it would have been better if it were wooden doors. As for the prisoner, what counts is that Justine wants to save him, not if it would really work. It's a test of her personality, nothing more. Besides, if Malo doesn't know there's a prisoner behind the door, why would he smash it? It's not like he can smell him.
As for the level door... well it would have been awkward if the chase didn't end there. I mean following that logic, he could have broken through the next door too, and through the cellar door... basically by making the mistake of putting metal doors in the chase sequence they established him as an unstoppable Juggernaut which bends the logic of the whole ending a bit. So instead, let's just assume that he got tired and gave up on the chase to gnaw at his own flesh some more.
10. The first prisoner can't see you. He's blindfolded. So he just assumes you are another one of Justine's prisoners who somehow got free.
RE: Justine: 10 questions. - Bridge - 03-10-2013
(03-10-2013, 02:34 PM)Tommyboypsp Wrote: I've just completed Justine again, and I just ran into a lot of questions.
I'll list them, I hope some of you can give me your view on these things.
1. Since you play as Justine, how come you're a normal, sane person? (assuming you're a sane person in real life, lol) This would mean that by drinking the Amnesia potion, Justine's personality was reset, and it didn't only make her forget, it also made her a 'normal' person. This doesn't make sense to me. As soon as she regains her memory in the room with the closing walls, she becomes her insane self again..
2. How do the prisoners escape? They're all tied up (assuming the priest is the one on the painting), and they'd have to get past the suitors. How do they follow Justine if you save them?
3. Is the dark place with the second suitor beneath the first map, with the first prisoner? (just curious)
4. How come all suitors look the same? Were FG feeling lazy? I mean, one of them is a simple musician, while another is someone who does heavy work for a living. Surely they didn't have the same physique?
5. Why is the map layout so weird? You have a lot of prison cells, just randomly located inbetween a library, a storage and an underground graveyard..
6. Also, why is it so 'open'? At the end, Justine walks up a staircase, and she's in the 'normal' house. All Clarice has to do, is just open a door and walk down and she'll find a room with closing walls, 3 prisoners (either dead or alive), and the suitors.
7. After the first prisoner, you go into this shaft and crawl around.. what is the purpose of this shaft?
8. How are so many candles lit? Did Justine light all of them before drinking the Amnesia potion?
9. How is the last suitor able to bash through metal doors? Surely he is angry and therefore stronger, but a metal door? And if he can, what's the point in saving the policeman? If the suitor can bash through metal doors, he can surely bash through that door aswell, so no point in closing it. Also, why doesn't he bash through the door between the water map and the graveyard map? Sure, for us it's a door that's inbetween 2 maps, but in the story, it's a normal door like any other. So he should be able to get through it, especially when he's chasing you.
10. Why do some of the prisoners assume you aren't Justine? They act as if there would just be a normal person walking inbetween a bunch of monsters and a psycopath.
Take into account that Justine was mainly an experiment. The game closes immediately when you die so it was intended more as a challenge than an intricately woven masterpiece of storytelling, especially because the objectives are so transparent.
1. It's doubtful Justine ever drank the "amnesia mixture" since it was something Alexander supposedly invented, half a continent away. I don't think he would really commercialize it, seeing as his reasons for inventing it were quite nefarious. I think Justine is just insane/has a split-personality disorder.
2. The point is not really saving them as much as not killing them. It's a simple challenge posed by the developers; as I said, the game is highly transparent.
3. I don't understand the question …
4. Time and budget constraints. After all, it's a free expansion.
5. and 6. For the reasons previously stated.
7. Ventilation perhaps? Who knows?
8. Actually yes. The entire game is a "test" that Justine designed for herself. If she had the means to place functional gramophones everywhere I'm sure she could light a few candles. It makes no sense if you actually think about it, because there are suitors almost everywhere who would have been able to kill her.
9. Just a design flaw.
10. Again, who knows?
RE: Justine: 10 questions. - felixmole - 03-10-2013
(03-10-2013, 02:34 PM)Tommyboypsp Wrote: 9. How is the last suitor able to bash through metal doors? Surely he is angry and therefore stronger, but a metal door? And if he can, what's the point in saving the policeman? If the suitor can bash through metal doors, he can surely bash through that door aswell, so no point in closing it. Also, why doesn't he bash through the door between the water map and the graveyard map? Sure, for us it's a door that's inbetween 2 maps, but in the story, it's a normal door like any other. So he should be able to get through it, especially when he's chasing you.
I think the actual question is: why does he not flip the switches or spin the valves himself, would it not be simpler?
(This was a troll. I personally do not care about it.)
RE: Justine: 10 questions. - PutraenusAlivius - 03-10-2013
(03-10-2013, 04:02 PM)felixmole Wrote:He want to eat Justine. HE CANNOT WAIT.(03-10-2013, 02:34 PM)Tommyboypsp Wrote: 9. How is the last suitor able to bash through metal doors? Surely he is angry and therefore stronger, but a metal door? And if he can, what's the point in saving the policeman? If the suitor can bash through metal doors, he can surely bash through that door aswell, so no point in closing it. Also, why doesn't he bash through the door between the water map and the graveyard map? Sure, for us it's a door that's inbetween 2 maps, but in the story, it's a normal door like any other. So he should be able to get through it, especially when he's chasing you.
I think the actual question is: why does he not flip the switches or spin the valves himself, would it not be simpler?
(This was a troll. I personally do not care about it.)
RE: Justine: 10 questions. - Diz - 03-10-2013
Hello! We may not be able to give you decisive answers, as we are but mere players ourselves. Commencing speculation!
1. Since you play as Justine, how come you're a normal, sane person? (assuming you're a sane person in real life, lol) This would mean that by drinking the Amnesia potion, Justine's personality was reset, and it didn't only make her forget, it also made her a 'normal' person. This doesn't make sense to me. As soon as she regains her memory in the room with the closing walls, she becomes her insane self again..
- Completely forgetting more or less every single thing about you and then waking up in a spooky place is going to have a critical effect on Justine (as it did for Daniel), and having an impression of the place and its surroundings may be so strong as to temporarily change or re-traumatize her. The human psyche is an extremely complex thing, so you can never say for certain, though one should never underestimate the things it can do.
In fact, I think you have just touched the core of Amnesia: The Dark Descent and how I personally experienced it, heavily immersing me into it. You wake up, knowing nothing, and even when I learned about the horrible things that I might have caused, I still accepted that I personally could have done it. The past may have been done in the heat of a moment and you may not have been thinking rationally, however as you wake up, entirely fresh personality, know absolutely nothing of preferences or memories, it can change you. This is why I felt I connected well with the game, even if I would never have been able to do such horrible things. You also get to see things in an entirely different light than you would have earlier.
2. How do the prisoners escape? They're all tied up (assuming the priest is the one on the painting), and they'd have to get past the suitors. How do they follow Justine if you save them?
- This is a mysterious aspect of the expansion pack and, if anything, adds to the mystic/creepy factor. We cannot say for sure how long Justine was out cold. The walls moving back might just be what woke her up after an unknown amount of time, so I think anything could have happened. The suitors are still alive from what we know, so it might be next to impossible to explain how it all worked out.
Correct me if I am wrong, but are not the suitors supposed to be blind? So they may have been able to sneak past them, while the suitors might have been able to smell some of Justine's scent. As for following Justine, we do not know for sure how long Justine had fainted, and there are only so many places you can go in the dungeon before you eventually find the exit.
There is also the chance that it all happened instantly. She fell to the ground paralyzed, had a flashback of memories, and then stood back up after ten seconds, in which case the whole affair is even more puzzling and not to dwell too much into.
3. Is the dark place with the second suitor beneath the first map, with the first prisoner? (just curious)
- I was thinking of this as well, and it does seem likely. Also, before you enter the room with the first prisoner, you do get to see/hear a suitor walking in a more lit room below, and when you are in the room with the pictures, there appears to be a suitor on the other side of the door.
4. How come all suitors look the same? Were FG feeling lazy? I mean, one of them is a simple musician, while another is someone who does heavy work for a living. Surely they didn't have the same physique?
- Also keep in mind that the suitors appear to have the same animations as the gatherers. On the plus side, god knows just how much horrible things Justine did to them, and you never see all of them at the same time to make comparing them easy, so they may have tried taking advantage of the fact that it should not matter way too much. During the time of The Dark Descent and Justine, characters' physique and appearance being different did not seem to be a big focus of Frictional Games, as long as they remained terrifying.
5. Why is the map layout so weird? You have a lot of prison cells, just randomly located inbetween a library, a storage and an underground graveyard..
- Justine is set in a dungeon which might previously have been used for prisoners or the like. It could be that the prison became obsolete at some point in time and that Justine's parents did not want all of the area to go to waste, making use of the big unused area and implementing these facilities. Of course, I am just sort of brainstorming here!
6. Also, why is it so 'open'? At the end, Justine walks up a staircase, and she's in the 'normal' house. All Clarice has to do, is just open a door and walk down and she'll find a room with closing walls, 3 prisoners (either dead or alive), and the suitors.
- For all we know, Clarice is just a maiden who gets to have a job at an exclusive and rich mansion if she promises to never go downstairs, but I entirely see your point. Even if Justine trusted Clarice with all her heart, accidents do happen. In the time prior to Justine's amnesia experiment, she may have locked certain doors and hid the keys. Something struck me just now, though. Clarice asks if Justine is alright when she exits the basement. Perhaps Clarice heard something?
7. After the first prisoner, you go into this shaft and crawl around.. what is the purpose of this shaft?
- Good question. Some sort of ventilation? Forcing forth the screams of other prisoners? Perhaps even a means as an escape route if the public came down there and found out that people were being held prisoners without official consent?
8. How are so many candles lit? Did Justine light all of them before drinking the Amnesia potion?
- Very likely so. Insane Justine did all of these horrible things down there, so she probably lit a ton of candles as part of the ritual. As to why this was done, I have no idea, but the same thing was done in The Dark Descent.
9. How is the last suitor able to bash through metal doors? Surely he is angry and therefore stronger, but a metal door? And if he can, what's the point in saving the policeman? If the suitor can bash through metal doors, he can surely bash through that door aswell, so no point in closing it. Also, why doesn't he bash through the door between the water map and the graveyard map? Sure, for us it's a door that's inbetween 2 maps, but in the story, it's a normal door like any other. So he should be able to get through it, especially when he's chasing you.
- One thing that is common for all three suitors is that they all have a blinding desire to get their hands on Justine. Not that I think I will be entirely right with these, but I believe, the first one wants to kill so that he always can have Justine with him, as part of his wicked love. The second one simply wants to brutally kill her for his wicked revenge. The third one insists that Justine will taste much more heavenly better than any other flesh for his wicked hunger, revenge and insanity. The suitor did spend a great deal of time, on the first metal door at least, in order to break it down. While it should not be possible, his strength must have become insanely super in his lust for finally scenting/assuming Justine, even if not necessarily realistic.
10. Why do some of the prisoners assume you aren't Justine? They act as if there would just be a normal person walking inbetween a bunch of monsters and a psycopath.
- Justine may have had a certain habit and behaviour when approaching the prisoners, completely nullified by her amnesia and fresh impressions, being uncomfortable and not knowing a single thing but her being in grave danger. When we hear Justine's recordings and how she behaves by the ending, we may assume that she often expressed a loud and wickedly pleased mood in the near of prisoners and whenever approaching them. As the prisoners now only would hear footsteps and nothing else, it would not be unreasonable to assume that it was someone else.
Although on the topic of prisoners, I sometimes had the opposite impression. The first prisoner would suddenly say "it is not too late to set things right", and the second prisoner would angrily say something like "wicked child" and curse you. Though whether or not they pick up on you actually being Justine, I have no idea.
(03-10-2013, 03:57 PM)Bridge Wrote: It's doubtful Justine ever drank the "amnesia mixture" since it was something Alexander supposedly invented, half a continent away. I don't think he would really commercialize it, seeing as his reasons for inventing it were quite nefarious. I think Justine is just insane/has a split-personality disorder.
Her cause for amnesia is hinted towards in one of the loading screens. She had previously overdozed on certain pills, and she was very familiar with their effect. ^^
Edit: Now that I think about it, I am pretty sure that Justine made reference to coming into contact with an Orb, which might further increase insanity. However, it could also be trying to easen her mind and be the cause of why she started to actually question her personality, thus induct such an experiment. The powers of the Orbs ... Though now I am just rambling things, haha.
RE: Justine: 10 questions. - Tommyboypsp - 03-10-2013
Thank you all for your replies!
(03-10-2013, 03:42 PM)JustAnotherPlayer Wrote: 8. It's either Justine or Clarice who did it.Interesting. So you're saying Clarice might have helped? Hmm..
(03-10-2013, 03:42 PM)JustAnotherPlayer Wrote: 10. Justine tortured a lot of people (i guess, since she's insane.). Maybe they assume somebody got out. Or, they thought a guest/someone on Justine's house just happened to a woke in a cell.Fair enough, hehe.
(03-10-2013, 03:55 PM)Hirnwirbel Wrote: Also at least Alois and Basile have no business killing other prisoners, they just want Justine. And Malo probably went somewhere else to...do kinky stuff.Hahahaha
(03-10-2013, 03:55 PM)Hirnwirbel Wrote: 3. No idea...have to play again.Made this about a week ago (that's when I started wondering about these things)
(03-10-2013, 03:55 PM)Hirnwirbel Wrote: Besides, if Malo doesn't know there's a prisoner behind the door, why would he smash it? It's not like he can smell him.Well he does make some noise. : P
(03-10-2013, 03:57 PM)Bridge Wrote: 1. It's doubtful Justine ever drank the "amnesia mixture" since it was something Alexander supposedly invented, half a continent away. I don't think he would really commercialize it, seeing as his reasons for inventing it were quite nefarious.I disagree. Amnesia is an official word for forgetfulness. Alexander made AN amnesia mixture. I think it would be very well possible for Justine to make her own.
(03-10-2013, 03:57 PM)Bridge Wrote: 3. I don't understand the question …The first prisoner, the friend of Justine's dad is in the place with the prison cells where the suitors and the other prisoner were held in before all of this started. If you look below you, you can see a dark place that looks like a point later in the game where you meet the second suitor. Do you think this is the same place?
(or if you have access to the map editor, can you find out?)
In the video: 4:18 and 30:30
(03-10-2013, 03:57 PM)Bridge Wrote: 8. Actually yes. The entire game is a "test" that Justine designed for herself. If she had the means to place functional gramophones everywhere I'm sure she could light a few candles.Fair enough, hehe.
(03-10-2013, 04:02 PM)felixmole Wrote: I think the actual question is: why does he not flip the switches or spin the valves himself, would it not be simpler?Lol, I hadn't thought about that.
(03-10-2013, 05:02 PM)Diz Wrote: Correct me if I am wrong, but are not the suitors supposed to be blind? So they may have been able to sneak past them, while the suitors might have been able to smell some of Justine's scent. As for following Justine, we do not know for sure how long Justine had fainted, and there are only so many places you can go in the dungeon before you eventually find the exit.That's right, they are blind. All of the prisoners seem to be tied up though, assuming the priest is tied up just like the prisoner on the painting. I never thought about the time Justine was passed out, though.
(03-10-2013, 05:02 PM)Diz Wrote: I was thinking of this as well, and it does seem likely. Also, before you enter the room with the first prisoner, you do get to see/hear a suitor walking in a more lit room below, and when you are in the room with the pictures, there appears to be a suitor on the other side of the door.Yes! And when you see him at the start in the room below, the 'window' you see him through looks like another window you see later in the game. I thought it was the same, but it turned out to be a very similar one.
In the video: 2:15 and 18:35
(03-10-2013, 05:02 PM)Diz Wrote: Something struck me just now, though. Clarice asks if Justine is alright when she exits the basement. Perhaps Clarice heard something?Nah.. silly Clarice..
(03-10-2013, 05:02 PM)Diz Wrote: Good question. Some sort of ventilation? Forcing forth the screams of other prisoners? Perhaps even a means as an escape route if the public came down there and found out that people were being held prisoners without official consent?Those are more things than I could come up with :o
(03-10-2013, 05:02 PM)Diz Wrote: Although on the topic of prisoners, I sometimes had the opposite impression. The first prisoner would suddenly say "it is not too late to set things right", and the second prisoner would angrily say something like "wicked child" and curse you. Though whether or not they pick up on you actually being Justine, I have no idea.No, he didn't recognize you. That's the one who DOES assume you're Justine, though when you save him, he says "Look out for Justine, she might still be close"..
So when you save him he thinks you're someone else.
(03-10-2013, 05:02 PM)Diz Wrote: Her cause for amnesia is hinted towards in one of the loading screens. She had previously overdozed on certain pills, and she was very familiar with their effect. ^^Oh, I see.. I feel like I've read that before..
Maybe I've had some amnesia drink
(03-10-2013, 05:02 PM)Diz Wrote: Edit: Now that I think about it, I am pretty sure that Justine made reference to coming into contact with an Orb, which might further increase insanity. However, it could also be trying to easen her mind and be the cause of why she started to actually question her personality, thus induct such an experiment. The powers of the Orbs ... Though now I am just rambling things, haha.Interesting, though if she did find an orb, there were only two options, either she had to maintain control over it, or it would kill her. That's why I don't think she had one.
RE: Justine: 10 questions. - Diz - 03-10-2013
(03-10-2013, 07:57 PM)Tommyboypsp Wrote: Interesting, though if she did find an orb, there were only two options, either she had to maintain control over it, or it would kill her. That's why I don't think she had one.
I am also uncertain whether she herself possessed it or not, however there are certain references that she knew about it. The ones I can remember at this time is the horrifying text in the corridor near the end that says something like "what will that blue sphere bring", and another one where you find a letter from Daniel asking for expertise on the Orbs. Very vague, but also very intriguing as to what it can be. =)
RE: Justine: 10 questions. - PutraenusAlivius - 03-11-2013
(03-10-2013, 03:42 PM)JustAnotherPlayer Wrote: 8. It's either Justine or Clarice who did it.Interesting. So you're saying Clarice might have helped? Hmm..
---
(03-10-2013, 05:02 PM)Diz Wrote: Something struck me just now, though. Clarice asks if Justine is alright when she exits the basement. Perhaps Clarice heard something?Nah.. silly Clarice..
[/quote]
I'm not saying that Clarice helped. I meant was maybe Clarice lit the candles because the house is too dark.
---
If you do something (if i was correct, i think it was collecting all letters or something.), Clarice says that she hears noises downstairs. It is speculated that Clarice knows that Justine is insane.
RE: Justine: 10 questions. - Paddy™ - 03-11-2013
@Tommyboypsp:
1. I think you've hit a pretty interesting point here. Psychopathy is more to do with personality than memory, there's no reason she should have been any less of a nutter just because she'd forgotten the previous week or two of her life. I think it's just a plot hole, to be honest.
9. Another good point, which leads me to the first of my own set of questions:
-------------------------
11: At the very beginning of the game you awaken in a cell with a suitor standing outside. Whether or not the suitor is supposed to have imprisoned you himself (which only raises further questions) or if he just peeked through the barred door on a whim, why doesn't he just bash the door in and kill Justine right there and then?
Maybe he thought "aha! The bitch is locked in a cell, unable to escape, I guess there's no point in rushing things. I'll just go fetch my gold-plated Spork™ and a bottle of wine before I tuck in to her sweetmeats." A few minutes later he returns "ahh Christ, who left the door open??"
12: Each suitor sounds like they're wheezing through a slit throat whilst being strangled. Why, then, are they able to speak so clearly when they want to? "Justine, my love" etc.? Are they faking vocal problems to get disability benefits?
13: Why doesn't Justine recognise her own voice on the recordings? The Amnesia mixture doesn't erase your entire life from birth (if the original game is anything to go by). Daniel remembers his own name after all, he even remembers his fuckin' address!
14: Why hasn't Clarice been fired for her blatantly negligent attitude towards the proper storage of potatoes? "Oh I'll just toss them into the corner of this dark, dank cellar crawling with rats, cockroaches and wheezing psychopaths. That'll be fine, I'm sure!" Yeah, no chips for me Clarice, thanks.
15: How did Justine time everything so perfectly? That is, her amnesia wears off right at the moment she's about to be crushed to death at the very end of her obstacle course. "This was the best one yet!"
16: Is there any way of discerning which suitor was behind that inaccessible door in the library's projection room? You know, the one who kept whacking the other side of the door when Justine got too close to it?