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+--- Thread: Open-ended discussion on creation and design (/thread-14487.html)
Open-ended discussion on creation and design - Putmalk - 04-04-2012
Yo, what's up guys.
I'm creating this thread because I'd like to see an open-ended discussion on anything design related (because this isn't in like an Offtopic forum, keep it to Amnesia custom story design). Everyone has a different opinion on things, and I'd like to see how these different opinions impact design decisions and map design.
You can pretty much talk about anything you'd like here (regarding map design, techniques, storytelling, etc.), but I'll start off.
In my mind, I think the base Amnesia game is one of the best games ever created. The atmosphere, the storytelling, the horror, it's all done superbly. The scares are unexpected, the levels are designed with accessibility in mind, but still rewarding exploration. I could ramble on about how much I love the base game, but let's get carried away.
When I design my maps, I try to keep the base game in mind, and design my maps so that they could realistically be inserted into the main game and someone wouldn't know the difference. I honestly don't tolerate sloppy maps. I think some of you know what I mean. I believe the term is "Pewdiepie" maps?
Sorry, I'm new here but I've seen that term used derogatorily here...and I have to agree, I've seen them, haha...Anyway, you've got to use fog and lighting to the maximum effect. Players should feel uneasy when moving through the map. They should be compelled to explore what you built and experiment with stuff, but feeling unsafe when doing so. Players should not be compelled to simply rush through the maps and get to the goal. I see a lot of custom stories just littered with key puzzles...why? I know key puzzles are the easiest to code/solve, but they are also mindless. And boring, may I add. One of my design goals when constructing my maps is to add interesting puzzles that require the player to think to solve. It's a challenge to both design, code, and solve, but I think it's more rewarding in the long run.
I also don't subscribe to the theory of jump scares. They end up looking cheaply made and if not done with some sort of backstory, then it comes off as meaningless and immersion-breaking. Random monster spawns that are unexplained break the immersion completely, and make the map a joke. In my opinion, of course. And, if they're not scripted correctly, can be very jarring and boring to experience.
This is just a few of my thoughts. I have a few others, but I'd like to hear your opinions as well. How should a good custom story be designed? What kind of things tick you off, or really make you happy to see in a custom story? There are so many topics, you should not feel compelled to simply respond to things I said in this OP.
RE: Open-ended discussion on creation and design - Adrianis - 04-04-2012
A good idea, perhaps more suited to the 'Articles' area but still.
Personally, responding to what you wrote about the base game, I think Penumbra and Amnesia are fantastic games but mostly for the engine, for how the physical interaction aids immersion. They are both superbly well created games...
For me, however, they are prohibitively scary. I've played horror games before, and to TDD's benefit and detriment, it is definately the scariest. I can't shake the feeling that it's all happening to me, which goes to show how well they've done it. I managed about 5 hours of Penumbra, not even 2 in Amnesia. I've honestly spent more time testing my own maps than playing the base game, I am sad to say (please don't kick me out!).
I wanted to explore the maps in Amnesia honestly I did, and to discover the story, but I just can't handle it. What I want to see, and indeed am working on creating, is a map not at all focused on horror. Maybe I've picked the wrong audiance but this engine is number 1 when it comes to immersion, principaly because of the physical interaction.
This engine has such potential for something far beyond horror. Don't get me wrong, I think what you guys in the community have been adding to the horror of this game is great. White Night, Deterioration and Through the Portal are some I've played that really stand out, excellent creative use of the tools, and all of them were pretty damn terrifying. I also don't want to seem like I don't respect horror as being great, I really do, its just not for me.
I don't think people should work on something other than horror, but I'd love to see what else is possible. I'm developing an FC to try to figure out if an environment can be detailed enough, a narrative fascinating enough and the atmosphere strong enough to hold a player in the experience without scaring them, without forcing them through a linear path, and without putting immersion breaking puzzles in the way of their exploration.
I don't want a player to feel uneasy when exploring, they should feel inquisitive and feel that their natural curiosity is benefitting them, not leading them to an early heart attack. Puzzles should reward a player if completed, but not stop them from progressing and exploring until they are completed.
Whilst I concur with what you say about jump scares, you may be entitled to say 'well duh' based on my inability to deal with horror! When done well they can be very very effective for players that like that sort of thing. Its pretty much a 'stop here' point for me in a story, where I realise I don't have to put myself through that sort of thing!
Of course, enjoyment of any game is always subjective, and any comment on what should or should not be used MUST always be said in the context of other people enjoying different things. I don't like horror a great deal, but I love powerful narratives and atmosphere which is what drew me to Penumbra and consequently Amnesia. Everything said above about what I think is best, what should and shouldn't be done, is just for me and players like me. I would expect almost everyone else on this forum to not be in the same position, and to consequently disagree, so take what I've said with appropriate levels of salt depending on your personal likes and dislikes
RE: Open-ended discussion on creation and design - Putmalk - 04-04-2012
How will your non-horror narrative be experienced? All of the characters would be horror-like enemies, so you couldn't include them, which means you'll have a pretty lonely world. Is that what your story would be focused around? I feel like in an empty world, if the player doesn't feel uneasy they don't have much to do, not many things to interact with. A lot of Amnesia is about hiding from the enemies, which is a form of interaction, which is something that a non-horror narrative would lack. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?
RE: Open-ended discussion on creation and design - Datguy5 - 04-04-2012
Here is a good tip for you all
ONT MAKE FLYING JESUSES!
RE: Open-ended discussion on creation and design - Putmalk - 04-04-2012
(04-04-2012, 08:04 PM)Datguy5 Wrote: Here is a good tip for you allI would like to elaborate on this statement.
Don't ****ing make Flying Jesuses! Lol...they are so bad, it's not even funny.
This would go under my "cheap jump scares" thing I posted in my OP.
RE: Open-ended discussion on creation and design - Strembitsky - 04-05-2012
Here's a tip that has gone around this community multiple times, and I feel it needs to be said again: Flying Jesuses are NEVER okay, if you want a good CS. Jump-scares, however, are allowed as long as you don't use them in sequence, and they make some sort of sense. Jump scares can be utilized for the best, if you use them correctly.
RE: Open-ended discussion on creation and design - Khyrpa - 04-05-2012
Use verticality in maps!
It just spices things up to instead of a straight corridor, its a stairway going up or down.
If you have a door that leads to a scary dark place. Make the player descend towards that door, lower the lighting near it and dirty the area up.
Details...
Use contrast.
Light intesity, color, soundvolume.
Details... No immersion without a real looking place to immerse oneself into.
Test your maps well. Get betatesters and whatnot, its surprising how much new set of eyes can see. Playing a buggy story leaves the player with a bad impression.
I'm sure these have been discussed about before somewhere...
RE: Open-ended discussion on creation and design - Adrianis - 04-05-2012
(04-04-2012, 07:35 PM)Putmalk Wrote: How will your non-horror narrative be experienced? All of the characters would be horror-like enemies, so you couldn't include them, which means you'll have a pretty lonely world. Is that what your story would be focused around? I feel like in an empty world, if the player doesn't feel uneasy they don't have much to do, not many things to interact with. A lot of Amnesia is about hiding from the enemies, which is a form of interaction, which is something that a non-horror narrative would lack. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?Loneliness will be an important aspect. In my mind, Amnesia was pretty damn lonely as well - Grunt's aint much for company
But as I said, I dont want the player feeling uneasy when exploring this environment, as it won't be a horror game constant un-ease isn't a neccessary part of building the atmosphere. But the atmosphere will be key.Your right, alot of Amnesia is hiding from enemies, which was frankly not the best part. For many people the best part was exploring the environment and discovering the narrative. I don't personally feel that hiding provides a good means of interaction but I do get what your saying. I hope to be able to expand the interactivity of the environment itself. Really, this is kind of an experiment to see if this sort of thing can work, I don't know if I'll be able to make all the other aspects well enough that you don't need mechanics like stealth and enemies to keep the player interested. I know that I can enjoy games in that style - Dear Esther for example has close to no interactivity, and yet the atmosphere and narrative were enough that I found it an excellent experience.
Fundamentally, I have no interest in re-making Amnesia or expanding on whats already there, but HPL2 is an excellent platform for exploring this design philosophy. Whether or not I can pull it off is another thing entirely.
You say you try to make your maps so that they could be inserted into Amnesia and no one would know the difference. Out of interest, why is it you want to recreate that same experience? Is it part of your challenge to see if you can make a horror experience of that calibur? Are you expanding on or changing part of that core experience, making it more about running from enemies or more about solving puzzles, more about narrative etc or are you trying to maintain the same balance?
RE: Open-ended discussion on creation and design - nemesis567 - 04-05-2012
A game can only include things such as loneliness if it can fully immerse you. As you can consider loneliness as a parameter of reduced immersion since it does not relate directly to the real world.
That said loneliness and the absense of friendly NPCs or any advanced Artificial Intelligence(AI) at all was the biggest fault of amnesia. If Amnesia couldn't do it, custom stories will very doubtfully be good by using that parameter of development.
The feeling of loneliness can be implemented without leaving the player alone at all. A few encounters with some form of AI will immerse the player to a deeper level, thus allowing things that would reduce immersion to be implemented and it's advantages to be used.
RE: Open-ended discussion on creation and design - Cranky Old Man - 04-05-2012
(04-04-2012, 09:12 PM)Putmalk Wrote:You know, there's about 2 posts like this a day. Did somebody make a map recently that was particularly bad, or have they always been really common? Is that all there is to say about level design?(04-04-2012, 08:04 PM)Datguy5 Wrote: Here is a good tip for you allI would like to elaborate on this statement.
Don't ****ing make Flying Jesuses! Lol...they are so bad, it's not even funny.
This would go under my "cheap jump scares" thing I posted in my OP.