+- Frictional Games Forum (read-only) (https://www.frictionalgames.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Amnesia: The Dark Descent (https://www.frictionalgames.com/forum/forum-6.html)
+--- Forum: General Discussion (https://www.frictionalgames.com/forum/forum-18.html)
+--- Thread: A Diskussion about "regenerative health" in horror games. (/thread-17220.html)
A Diskussion about "regenerative health" in horror games. - Googolplex - 07-23-2012
Hello.
I have a friend in the UK and we both are hardcore gamer.
That means we do hate all casual games and casual elements in games.
Because we think it's better to see a game as a challenge.
And especially in a horror game, regenerative health could impair the attention of the player in danger scenes.
I wrote to him, that he really should try Penumbra & Amnesia. Because he said that horror games with regen health are not scary. I said him, that I also don't like that casual feature, but nevertheless this both games are scary as hell.
But in general I totally agree with him. I think it's better when you find medikits in form of Laudanum etc. to get healed. The problem is that it would make a game incredible when picking up such items behind every corner.
So they should be really rare and only avaiable in provided rooms.
But to have regen health will break the horror, because you simply need to wait a minute and everything is fine.
I also wrote to him, that the goal of a horror game is not to die. Because when you die, you need to load a previous savegame and that will pull you out of the immersion. So maybe regen health is a good feature to avoid that? I think we both are right in our own meaning. I generally prefer to use medicine to get healed. But medicine should be rare that you feel a worth of it and use it wisely. That may could improve the mental effect of a horror game.
What do you think?
Does regen health break the horror?
Did he have right here?
This is the text he wrote:
I don’t like regen no matter how long it takes, it can take 3 days for all I care, it’s still a COD mechanic, and Any mechanic from that game is an instant game ruiner for me, because it reminds me of that game, and puts me off the game.
I never said the purpose was to DIE, if you play a game properly, you WONT die, but the problem I have with regen is, it makes it virtually IMPOSSIBLE to die, you become a super-hero, that isn’t scary, to me, one of the greatest fears in a game is FAILURE, the Death of the player character, all the fear in the game has to be based on that one fear, otherwise it becomes "stab" horror. i.e. the moment, SOMETHING bursts out of the wall and you just go "SHIT! what was that!!" but then, you’re not scared afterwards, because you know you are invincible, but, knowing you can die, you’re in a state of constant fear, fear of a mistake, fear of an encounter, which means you go into a state of "continual self perpetuating fear", a-k-a "TERROR".
i never load a savegame, i ALWAYS go back to the start of the level, because i NEVER manually save, i only use the end-level autosave, because, basically, i want to be PUNISHED for getting it wrong, so i wont get it wrong next time i play.
System shock is NOT a horror. Never advertised as one,. You seem to be of the logic that “it has monsters, so it must be made more horrific”. No, just because a game has monsters, it doesn’t mean its horror. System Shock was ALWAYS advertised as a “Sci FI RPG with FPS elements” same as its sequel “bio shock” and its spiritual sequal (and about the only game to stand up to half life) “Deus EX” (ONE only, the rest suck) no “horror” mentioned, Condemned is also not really advertised as a horror, the product brief actually states “a first person action adventure detective based psychological thriller” again, no Mention of “horror”.
one thing I find scary is to inverse the "I have a weapon, I can fight" logic, sadly it is rarely used because publishers want to appeal to combat obsessed American teenagers, so they want TONS of combat in the game. but sometimes its used, and if it’s used in the right place, in a game that has a lot of conventional combat against "humans", it can be such a shock to the system as to genuinely unsettle the player, as an example, in "No One Lives Forever 2", there is a brilliant, if rather less than credible (but as the nolf series is a SPOOF of 1960s spy-fi and is not meant to be realistic, I don’t think credibility really counts all that much) level called "ice station evil" were you take on a DERANGED super soldier called Joseph Anders, you have a .32 McAlister handgun ( a fictionalised Beretta m1951), about 3 mags, 9 rounds per mag, so when he BURSTS through the wall. screaming away, "What am i... WHO DID THIS TO ME? Abigail? is that you? no?.... KIIIIILLLL!" your first instinct,. based on previous combat against regular humans, is to let him have it with the full mag to find..
HE
CANNOT
BE
KILLED
the response from the player, knowing he can kill you in one attack and your weapon is USELESS against him, is "SHIIIIIIIIIITTTT" the player goes into PANIC mode automatically, seeing as they cannot Fight, the only choice left is flight. its that inversion on "I have a gun, so I can fight", to, "I have gun. And it’s USELESS!-HEEEEELLLLPPP!" that puts the player into an OH SHIT! Mode, and it’s not even a Horror game, it’s a pure FPS, but that one level, ice station evil, is pure. Horror, genius in my opinion.
using the word "medkits" was the wrong word perhaps, sometimes i tend to generalise, quite forgetting that to many players, a medkit is LITERALLY that, the "big ol' green box", sure, that’s appropriate for some locations, but, not for others, plus, i think the way they work could easily be made much more realistic by taking a leaf out of "metal gear solid 3"'s book. perhaps I should say, "Healing Items". ie, painkillers (found in medicine cabinets etc.) will boost you back to 100% health, but as its not cured the injury, your health will slowly tick down (1 unit per 10 seconds) back to the injured level, a "bleeder" wound will slowly cause health to drain out until you die, unless you can find a bandage to stop you bleeding, but that will only stabilise your health, only a "stimpack" (adrenaline shot) will give you full health recovery, but due to the adrenal rush will leave you unable to differentiate between friend and foe for a couple of minutes (offset however by increased strength, speed and accuracy due to the adrenal effects during that period). and items placed realistically, for example, in a house, you are likely to find bandages and painkillers, but not a stimpack, an enemy is liable to have a stimpack, but not bandages, out in the wild, you will have to identify plants with healing properties and use bush craft to turn them into "natural medpacks" and only in locations such as office buildings or military locations should you be able to find the classic "first aid/medikit" with the full selection of multiple stimpacks, multiple bandages, etc. that way you can have a non regen "medkit" based system, but not lose realism by filling the levels with the "big green box" blight because you can instead have more realistic individual items such as bandages, painkillers, or even PLANTS, depending on the locale.
Amnesisa and penumbra are SCARY yes, they do induce paranioa, BUT, they are not CONSTANTLY scary, its more “Stab” horror, due to that “invulnerability”. Remember, I came up with “Clock Tower” a game that IS CONSTANTLY scary, because, like amnesia and penumbra it has a STRONG theme of torture and mental anguish, but is amplified by 1. The FEAR OF FAILURE (no regen health to fall back on!) 2. The main character, rather than being a grown up male is a TEENAGE GIRL so you feel “protective” towards that character, and 3, your character is not only DEFENSELESS but is also CLUMSY, as a result, were as in penumbra or amnesia, you can get the hell away from a confrontation by running for it, you cant run for the hills in “tower” because “Jen” will fall over, and then she has HAD IT!. So to me, although Penumbra and Amnesia are DAMN Frightening, I have actually, played SCARIER! Titles from the 2d ERA, now, if they took penumbras first person horror, mental anquish and torture, and made the main character a clumsy, innocent teenage girl and used non regen health that is gone VERY quickly, then you would have a game that would be HEART ATTACK inducing.
to me, the health system is part of the FEAR OF FAILURE calculation, the harder it is to recover health, then the higher the FEAR OF FAILURE, for me, the FEAR OF FAILURE is the strongest fear, that underlines ALL other fears, so to me, the health system is a VITAL part of a horror game, in the same way the Aiming system is vital in a shooter, (hence my hatred of "dynamic scaling" more commonly called "expanding crosshairs” as they ruin the shooting, which is the most important mechanic in that genre, like fear is the most important aspect of a horror title) the health system is vital to a horror game. Because without that underlying Fear of Failure, all you have left is creepy music that causes mild unsettlement and “Stab” horror, that puts you into panic for a few seconds, for TERROR, constant perpetuating Fear and panic, you need the underlying fear of failure.
To me, health regen isn’t a bad idea in general, it’s a bad idea PERIOD.
Who would have thought it, for once I’m being more hardcore than you ? its normally the other way around.
Will you kindly name me some games that mix “bloody screen!-So Real” with a non regen health system please?, for I have not encountered any yet. It is an indication of regen for me because in my experience, it has ALWAYS come attached to that, and more, game Wrecking COD mechanics. (IMO, if your game has ANY of the following elements, regenerating health, gun limit, control hints, ADS, Dynamic Scaling (unless it can be TURNED OFF, then ill accept it), cover, QTE or a mix of any of the above then to me it’s too like COD and is ruined because it reminds me of that pile of turd and I am “put off” the game)
I have a new PC now, very high spec. quad core i7 processor, windows 7 main OS with Switchable XP, ’95 and DOS back ups, 3 hard drives of 60 gig each, latest nvidea geforce card with ATI back up card, over 6 gig graphical ram, EAX 4.0 harmon kardonn sound system with 50 channel audio and surround sound ability, 25 inch screen FULL HD with full “glasses less” 3D support. And a purpose built gaming keyboard. Its far beyond the spec for ANY current game and will be well ahead of the curve for a few years yet. not that ill buy many modern games, to many shitty console ports out there.
Silent hill isnt that scary on the surface true, it’s the questions it asks that are scary, it makes you question the mental state of your main character (especially hill 2) and then you start to question your OWN mental state, then it gets scary, what’s on the surface with hill isn’t all that scary, its just your typical DOOM type “zombies meet machine gun..zombies loose” game, but it’s the storyline and the questions it makes the gamer ask about the characters mental state and then the players OWN mental state that will keep the player awake at night. Its what is underneath the basic “resident evil clone” surface that counts with Hill..
Cod zombies is pathetic, its just an excuse to make “moar moneyz” from morons by capitalising on something activision learned years BEFORE they became “craptivision” when VUG bought them and bobby kotick got his claws in, with “Wolfenstein 3d”. people LOVE shooting Nazi Undead.
Dead space. HAH! Aliens is scarier than dead space. All dead space is, is gears of war with an Aliens inspired asthetic. Its pathetic, a morons super hero game indeed.
RE: A Diskussion about "regenerative health" in horror games. - CorinthianMerchant - 07-23-2012
So being a hardcore gamer means hating all casual games?
Gentlemen, that's a hipster gamer.
Once again, GoogolLogic
RE: A Diskussion about "regenerative health" in horror games. - Traggey - 07-23-2012
I have nothing against regenerating health if it's used in games that really are not focused on the whole survival thing.
If the developers of a game want to rather tell a story than provide a super challenging experience then let them do so if they see it fit better for the game, many games these days are not about challenging you, but rather provide entertainment and many people simply get bothered by dying in games.
If I'd be playing for example Saints Row and I'd be dying over and over again because there's no regenerating health mechanic then I'd probably get sick of it rather quickly because it's a game where I simply want to sit down and have some crazy ass fun.
Implementing regenerating health into the horror genre all depends on what kind of experience the game wants to deliver, so personally I don't think this is a subject of discussion really.
If it works for a game and lets the developers provide the experience they want then let them do it.
Games are a media format, developers give us the experience they want to give us.
RE: A Diskussion about "regenerative health" in horror games. - Googolplex - 07-23-2012
(07-23-2012, 07:55 PM)CorinthianMerchant Wrote: So being a hardcore gamer means hating all casual games?
Gentlemen, that's a hipster gamer.
Once again, GoogolLogic
Please don't troll here again, it's not a thread for childish fights.
Yes to be a hardcore gamer means automatically to hate casual games.
Because they ruin the impact of a game by using aid and hints related to unrealistic and easy gameplay for mainstream noobies. There are people who like credible, challenging games.
And I think the goal of a horror game is not Fun, it is mental pains.
To feel more "in the game" to connect to the character, is a main goal of a horror game.
And you shouldn't think your life is just virtual. The HORROR means frustration, this effect would be improved when there is NO automatic regen health.
RE: A Diskussion about "regenerative health" in horror games. - Traggey - 07-23-2012
You don't know that though Googol, you're not a game developer.
During development of a game it goes through several itterations, and if an immersive atmospheric horror game happens to have regenerating health there's a reason for that.
Horror can be delivered in many different ways and making the player affraid of dying might not always be something the developer wants to do.
This is why this subject is silly to discuss.
RE: A Diskussion about "regenerative health" in horror games. - spukrian - 07-23-2012
Automatic health regeneration could be ok, it depends on the game really. Sure, I don't like it in FPS games or horror games, but Amnesia and Penumbra are such great games that I can overlook this.
RE: A Diskussion about "regenerative health" in horror games. - Damascus Rose - 07-23-2012
Not having regenerating health in Amnesia would just be an annoyance, walking around really slowly with the screen all red trying to find laudanum.. that would suck.
On an unrelated note, it was really painful reading what your friend said when he capitalizes words for emphasis every sentence, such a juvenile thing to do. I had to stop because it was giving me a headache..
RE: A Diskussion about "regenerative health" in horror games. - Googolplex - 07-23-2012
I also think that Amensia and Penumbra are such good horror games that you can forget this casual feature. If I would ignore a game just because this little feature, then I would miss some of really excellent games. Not only Amnesia and Penumbra.
He just means that regen health should not be part of a true horror game.
And I totally agree with him, I also hate this feature, but Amnesia and Penumbra are so fantastic games yet. I think there's no negative about this feature in this both games. It's just meant in general.
We liked it in old games where you have to find medicine etc. Auto regen is just for modern casual teenies. But it's totally wrong to say that every game is bad just because of some features.
And all the people who already played Penumbra and Amnesia, would know, that there is no wrong.
RE: A Diskussion about "regenerative health" in horror games. - Traggey - 07-23-2012
If you ask me, wandering around magicly finding medkits layin' around freakin' everywhere is something that ruins the immersion way more, every time I find a medkit in games they always make me go
''And WHO THE-F*** LEFT THIS HERE?''
RE: A Diskussion about "regenerative health" in horror games. - Googolplex - 07-23-2012
(07-23-2012, 09:05 PM)Traggey Wrote: If you ask me, wandering around magicly finding medkits layin' around freakin' everywhere is something that ruins the immersion way more, every time I find a medkit in games they always make me go
''And WHO THE-F*** LEFT THIS HERE?''
Yes, that's what I wrote. It would make a game more incredible.
But the same problem with the Oil and Tinderboxes.
This is why I wrote that such items just should be avaiable in provided rooms where it's logic to find them there.