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War - BAndrew - 08-18-2013
Note:
*I searched about a similar thread, but I didn't found anything. I am sorry if such a topic already exists.
Recently, I had an intense conversation with my cousin. It seems that we have very different opinions. The topic was simple: is war pointless or not?
My opinion is that in the end it actually is pointless. My cousin's point was that war is necessary in order to defend your country or free your nation or.. you get the idea. Not only that, but he was so extremist that he is a good reason for war himself. I believe he is missing the details though; and sometimes details really matter.
I suppose it's OK if you want to defend your country/family, but why do wars occur in the first place? Someone has to start them and this someone has a name "Politician". It's quite simple to start a war. Find an excuse, fanaticize the mass or convince it by promising the impossible and there you have it; an army ready to kill and be killed while you remain in your office and enjoying the battle or whatever. And there's more: If you are victorious you have a good chance of been considered hero or "god sent". Mankind has come up with an uncountable ammount of excuses for war. Religion, Land, Wealth, Politics, and Resources are among the main ones. Church has without any doubt been a huge factor which is by the way ridiculous. Is there however any serious reason? Because I can't find any. Not to mention that war fails to achieve anything at all. People die for nothing. The most retarded things happen at war*. I have more things to say, but I would like to here your opinions first.
* HINT :
Spoiler below!
RE: War - 7heDubz - 08-18-2013
Well, I don't see how war is in the end pointless, it definitely gets a point across. "we have bigger sticks then you do. you listen to us" It also helps to assert dominance. If i have bigger sticks then these guys they aren't going to hurt me. It is simple human nature to war. It is in our genes. In our instincts. Before we became the oh-so-civilized people we were today, it was fight for the better land, or get the crappy land with no animals, or perhaps (i'm still talking about instincts) the bigger and better male normally gets all the people to follow him, or the alpha.
The year 2000 america was the guy with the biggest stick, so everyone wanted to trade with us and ally to us. Henceforth helping protect us and make us prosper.
RE: War - Bridge - 08-18-2013
Everything is pointless. But consider the merits of having only one superpower capable of overcoming all of the other countries of the world combined. The entire point of the Cold War was to prevent this. Imagine a world where the USSR was in control of every nuke on the planet. You would do what they say or you'd get nuked. It doesn't even matter if they weren't stupid enough to actually do it - the threat is still there. Their power would be in the things they were capable of doing, and nobody would risk open war with the USSR. You can dress it up any way you like - at the end of the day land and resources are just icing. War is always founded on some kind of struggle to balance the distribution of power. Again, it doesn't really matter whether the warring states want balance, the end result is balance especially now with all of the international treaties.
RE: War - The chaser - 08-18-2013
War, war... that goddamn thing...
War is, possibly, the worst thing about humanity. Basically, what WIWWM said is quite it, but there are lots of excuses: In my opinion, masses don't usually want wars, the governments are those that want it: Most of the time in our history, wars have been because of religious reasons, and I see that just as a way to manipulate people: "If you help us kill those guys, you'll go to heaven." People are so ignorant that they believe it, and have the wish to go to heaven (who not?) so they go to war (that was before and now in some islamic countries)
Now is more a reason of fear: "If we don't act, those radicals are gonna beat our asses". Media manipulates information for government, because the government wins lots and lots of money from the wars.
RE: War - BAndrew - 08-18-2013
@WIWWM
You have a point there. Humans are basically animals with high intelligence and will do everything to stay safe. But how often animals of the same race organize into groups and kill each other?
Also think about it. How many wars really helped? A war is a series of catastrophes that somehow leads to victory.
EDIT: I am not suggesting that there isn't any explanations for why wars occur. I however doubt its benefits and whether there is a logical reason for wars to happen.
(08-18-2013, 06:33 PM)Bridge Wrote: Everything is pointless. But consider the merits of having only one superpower capable of overcoming all of the other countries of the world combined. The entire point of the Cold War was to prevent this. Imagine a world where the USSR was in control of every nuke on the planet. You would do what they say or you'd get nuked. It doesn't even matter if they weren't stupid enough to actually do it - the threat is still there. Their power would be in the things they were capable of doing, and nobody would risk open war with the USSR. You can dress it up any way you like - at the end of the day land and resources are just icing. War is always founded on some kind of struggle to balance the distribution of power. Again, it doesn't really matter whether the warring states want balance, the end result is balance especially now with all of the international treaties.
So what's the point you are making?
RE: War - Focalize - 08-18-2013
Human nature indeed.
1.state of nature:all humans are at war with each other, insecurity-/survival-driven, state of chaos
2. the more the merrier: join nearest group, symbiosis (within the same species?)
3. kings: but wait we need someone "superior" in charge to awe the rest of us, to keep everyone in check for the common good
4. everyone: power looks delicious, I want moarrr
5. group identity: we're the best!
6. corruption: see point 4
7. internal conflict: need common external enemy to avoid division
6. wars: see point 5 and 7
It's oversimplified because I'm no fan of politics or history. In the end: pointless because we use excuses for the ugly sides of us, not pointless because we are the centre of the universe
@BAndrew: animals also form in groups and kill each other, like different species (subspecies? idk) of chimps, at least the last time I watched the jungle chapter of Planet Earth.
RE: War - BAndrew - 08-18-2013
(08-18-2013, 07:00 PM)Shimeji Wrote: Human nature indeed.
1.state of nature:all humans are at war with each other, insecurity-/survival-driven, state of chaos
2. the more the merrier: join nearest group, symbiosis (within the same species?)
3. kings: but wait we need someone "superior" in charge to awe the rest of us, to keep everyone in check for the common good
4. everyone: power looks delicious, I want moarrr
5. group identity: we're the best!
6. corruption: see point 4
7. internal conflict: need common external enemy to avoid division
6. wars: see point 5 and 7
It's oversimplified because I'm no fan of politics or history. In the end: pointless because we use excuses for the ugly sides of us, not pointless because we are the centre of the universe
@BAndrew: animals also form in groups and kill each other, like different species (subspecies? idk) of chimps, at least the last time I watched the jungle chapter of Planet Earth.
Bolded: Yes, but as you said different species. You will never see group of wolves vs group of wolves unless they are starving or are in an extremely dangerous for survival position. So why humans vs humans?
Underlined: Come on, there is no centre of the universe.
All the things you said explain more or less why wars happen and I completely agree. What I asked (maybe I didn't made it clear enough) is whether there is a logical reason to declare war. To put it in simple words:
Would an alien who closely watches Earth describe war as a logical process?
RE: War - J.R.S.S. - 08-18-2013
(08-18-2013, 07:20 PM)BAndrew Wrote: What I asked (maybe I didn't made it clear enough) is whether there is a logical reason to declare war. To put it in simple words:Humans are not logical. With logic, comes the emptiness of emotion which us humans embrace. While it does seem illogical to have wars, it is only human to do so. The state of nature demands it of us. In the end, with the universe so vast and magnificent (yet destructive), war might very well be illogical in all ways. But we are yet so small, and with being human comes having the emotions that wars are bred from.
I would advise partaking in a political science course at your local college. Or perhaps studying political science in your own time. The way of how the world works when it contains to different regimes and ways of life makes some more sense after studying political science/theory.
RE: War - i3670 - 08-18-2013
War has changed drastically the last hundred years or so. War was more civilized during the late 1800's. It was like this because the supreme power Prussia knew how and why war should be fought. Today's saber rattling aggressive wars in seemingly random countries has costly, counterproductive and bloody occupations - without an apparent political-military strategy - would've been completely alien to calculating prussian lords like chancellor Otto von Bismarck, general field marshal Helmuth von Moltke or military theorist Carl von Clausewitz. The later asked the question "What is war?" and answered the question himself that "War is merely a continuation of politics by other means." For example the prussian wars against Denmark, Austria and France had concrete political reasons and thus was characterized by restrictions and great willingness to quickly make peace, that would last. As an example of this, Bismarck after defeating France gave them colonies in Africa. The goal wasn't war itself, but as soon as possible to make peace on favorable terms. The enemy wasn't supposed to be annihilated, only to go along with their party's political goals.
"Nothing personal, just business."
RE: War - BAndrew - 08-18-2013
@J.R.S.Storch
Quote:Humans are not logical
Sadly, this is true. Actually, we can turn the war-argument on its head and conclude that humans are not thinking rationally (at least most of them).
P.S. Thanks for the advice.
@i3670 By any means war itself is never the goal (unless the person is insane).
Also, think of it:
Who is remembered? The soldiers who actually died or Otto von Bismarck?