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Real permadeath - a thought experiment - MrBehemoth - 10-10-2014

The concept of player death in narrative led games has been discussed elsewhere on this forum, but I kind of see a problem with it, which got me and Mrs Behemoth talking yesterday about an idea which I thought I'd share and see what people's opinions are.

First, the problem (only a minor problem, which I'm happy to live with) is this: in a narrative led game, you're telling a story. If the player dies, the story ends. If you then load up a save and carry on, it's a different version of the story. Like the film Run, Lola, Run, where every time the plot reaches a disaster, Lola would rewind to the start and do things slightly differently. Or, remember Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time? The story of that game was framed as if the Prince himself was verbally narrating the story. Every time you died, he would say, "No, no, that's not how it happened," because, obviously, he didn't die or he wouldn't be able to tell the story. It was a noble attempt to solve the death issue, but it just felt dumb. In a way, that's what all games are like, at least all games where the protagonist can die.

The Chinese Room almost tried to tackle this in AMFP. They were planning to have it so that if you got caught by a pigman, rather than dying, you woke up in a different part of the map, with a puzzle to solve before you could resume. They removed that feature, probably because they (correctly) felt that it would remove all sense of threat. I tried to do a similar thing in The Trapdoor by implying that Burke had not been killed but merely blacked out and woken up somewhere else, after having returned to Boney in a fugue. I think it was a bit too subtle, or not different enough from the normal Amnesia mechanic, and people still saw it as a death-and-reload situation, but I didn't want to remove that mechanic altogether, because there needs to be a fail state to avoid, in order to create drama, tension and agency.

At the other end of the spectrum there's permadeath. It works in roguelikes, but roguelikes are a niche for people who prefer mastering difficulty curves over narrative. What about Justine? It worked because the game was fairly easy and, as DLC, most people who played it had already mastered Amnesia. As a stand alone game, costing £15 or more, people would have been less receptive. Permadeath removes some of the narrative inconsistency but not all of it, because you can always start a new game.

So, here is a possible solution, or hypothetical new game genre. It's just an idea, so tell me what you think.
  • Imagine a short, narrative led game (for example something like Justine in terms of length and pacing) where the difficulty curve is gentle, but the threat is real.

  • It's cheap. Say, £2 or less.

  • It could be an episode in a longer story, and you have to play them in order.

  • Somehow, the game would have to know whether you'd played it before. Now, that would be difficult to implement, but this is just an idea.

  • The catch: the game has permadeath. Real permadeath, as in, once your player character has died, that's it. Story over. Finito. There's no new game button. You get one shot, just like real life.

But anyway, now there's no narrative inconsistency. There's no "that's not how it happened". The drama and tension are higher, because you've got more to lose. Agency is increased, because your choices can have permanent, world-changing outcomes.

Or maybe another way would be that you can play again, but you have to buy another shot, like an arcade game, for say, 50p.

What do people think of this idea? Would it just be frustrating? Or would it make the experience more engaging, and ultimately more rewarding if you make it to the end?

RE: Real permadeath - a thought experiment - Froge - 10-10-2014

Have you tried the newgrounds game "7 Days"? You basically have seven in-game days to fix a disease that's about to destroy the world. If you fail, the game remembers your state and prevents you from playing again.

It was immediately bypassed by clearing your cookies.

RE: Real permadeath - a thought experiment - Newsman Waterpaper - 10-10-2014

I was originally going to make The Streets of London have permadeath in it but I thought the mod was already challenging as it is so I decided against it but I thought of making a another edition with permadeath called " Permanent Premature Death" (Get the "joke") but I realised that the permadeath mechanic in Justine required the Launcher which the AmnesiaTest111113 patch doesn't have.

With that said The Streets of London has the cut ideas from AMFP with the non-despawning enemies(even if you got "killed") but I plan to make the encounters a tad easier when the player dies a couple times, however I trying to attempt to keep the fear and tension even the player are dealing with the "easier" enemies.

I see your point about having to solve a puzzle when you respawn, I think it could remove some tension from the game.

(10-10-2014, 08:22 PM)MrBehemoth Wrote: So, here is a possible solution, or hypothetical new game genre. It's just an idea, so tell me what you think.
  • Imagine a short, narrative led game (for example something like Justine in terms of length and pacing) where the difficulty curve is gentle, but the threat is real.

  • It's cheap. Say, £2 or less.

  • It could be an episode in a longer story, and you have to play them in order.

  • Somehow, the game would have to know whether you'd played it before. Now, that would be difficult to implement, but this is just an idea.

  • The catch: the game has permadeath. Real permadeath, as in, once your player character has died, that's it. Story over. Finito. There's no new game button. You get one shot, just like real life.
Me personally, I think this is a great idea and I would like to see this executed in a game.

RE: Real permadeath - a thought experiment - MrBehemoth - 10-10-2014

(10-10-2014, 09:17 PM)Froge Wrote: Have you tried the newgrounds game "7 Days"? You basically have seven in-game days to fix a disease that's about to destroy the world. If you fail, the game remembers your state and prevents you from playing again.
Like all my best ideas, someone has already done it. Smile
I'll check it out. I'm guessing it's free?

(10-10-2014, 09:17 PM)Froge Wrote: It was immediately bypassed by clearing your cookies.
If the 'real permadeth' idea was implemented, it would need to have somekind of anti-cheat system. I've no idea how that could work though!


(10-10-2014, 09:56 PM)Newsman Waterpaper Wrote: ......but I realised that the permadeath mechanic in Justine required the Launcher which the AmnesiaTest111113 patch doesn't have.
You can still totally implement permadeath in TDD though. Just put your only respawn point in a black box, then after the player dies and respawns in the box, freeze them, roll credits.

(10-10-2014, 09:56 PM)Newsman Waterpaper Wrote: I see your point about having to solve a puzzle when you respawn, I think it could remove some tension from the game.
I don't think it's a bad idea in general, but it would have made the piggies less scary (to the extent that they were scary) if you knew that they weren't actually going to hurt you. Don't know if you knew, but one of those puzzles made it into the final game. In the sewers, there is a separate area with a big pit. If you fall in you have to use a rock to knock a ladder down. If you'd been caught you would have woken at the bottom of the pit.

(10-10-2014, 09:56 PM)Newsman Waterpaper Wrote: Me personally, I think this is a great idea and I would like to see this executed in a game.
Thanks! Good to know.
...But... would you pay for it?

RE: Real permadeath - a thought experiment - Newsman Waterpaper - 10-10-2014

(10-10-2014, 10:58 PM)MrBehemoth Wrote:
(10-10-2014, 09:56 PM)Newsman Waterpaper Wrote: ......but I realised that the permadeath mechanic in Justine required the Launcher which the AmnesiaTest111113 patch doesn't have.
You can still totally implement permadeath in TDD though. Just put your only respawn point in a black box, then after the player dies and respawns in the box, freeze them, roll credits.
I suppose so, I could do it like the alternative difficultly settings in The Trapdoor.
(10-10-2014, 10:58 PM)MrBehemoth Wrote:
(10-10-2014, 09:56 PM)Newsman Waterpaper Wrote: I see your point about having to solve a puzzle when you respawn, I think it could remove some tension from the game.
I don't think it's a bad idea in general, but it would have made the piggies less scary (to the extent that they were scary) if you knew that they weren't actually going to hurt you. Don't know if you knew, but one of those puzzles made it into the final game. In the sewers, there is a separate area with a big pit. If you fall in you have to use a rock to knock a ladder down. If you'd been caught you would have woken at the bottom of the pit.
I remember that area in the bilge level, I thought the walls will be closing in on you when you were in it. I read in the post-modem that bilge,sewers and tunnels were alot more dangerous. I think the tunnels would have been more tense if the pneumatic tubes were malfunctioning,removing the shortcut back to the centrifuge(the area blocked up bu steam) and you had to carry the canisters to the centrifuge yourself, e.g you carrying the canister, the shortcuts gone so you have to backtrack to the holding pens where you can find the hidden (actually hostile) manpig encounter.
(10-10-2014, 10:58 PM)MrBehemoth Wrote:
(10-10-2014, 09:56 PM)Newsman Waterpaper Wrote: Me personally, I think this is a great idea and I would like to see this executed in a game.
Thanks! Good to know.
...But... would you pay for it?
If we expecting some like Justine and for the price of $/£2 I would pay for it. Unlike most gamers, I wouldn't moan about game that 4 hours long that costs 15 euro or dollars(tho I wouldn't pay $/£ 50 for a 5 min game.)

RE: Real permadeath - a thought experiment - Zannibal - 10-13-2014

I saw a game with permanent ending in the glorious year of Game Maker, 2006. Or something. Anyway, the idea of the game was that you had to either execute a person or close the game (the latter is a bit lame, which they had some button to free the person). If you killed the person he would stay dead even if you restarted the game. If I'm not fully mistaken it was done by making some change to registry and something? So it wasn't simple savegame trick and most people wouldn't have been able to tell how it was made Big Grin

As for idea, it would be cool to try out. I would definitely pay £2 for that. And in fact, if LP'ers hear about it you may get a lot of sales if the game was lengthy. Like who gets to the end. People would want to try out themselves.

I wouldn't go for selling additional lives. It would ruin the idea for permadeath and your little company would never see the light of day again because currently people seem to hate even normal DLCs - let alone selling additional lives : D

RE: Real permadeath - a thought experiment - FlawlessHappiness - 10-14-2014

If you haven't watched Sword Art Online you definitely should!
http://www.lovemyanime.net/anime/sword-art-online/

Because I'm so caught in this series, I'm gonna show my perspective.
The game doesn't have to be short. Just replayable.

If it's replayable, then it doesn't have to be cheap either. Put some money in there, to make it awesome.

Now, story is the problem, I understand. (I didn't read through all the comments. Only the OP).
In Sword Art Online[...]
Spoiler below!

It's an MMORPG. Meaning you have a character. You level up, grow stronger...
But if you die, the penalty is harsh! You die. Also in reality.

Of course, such a game would never be released by any company, but here we're talking about dying, and losing your character. This could happen too.

Rewards for winning, and punishment for failing.

It could be amazing. You'd have to be careful. You'd have to be very careful.
But you'd have the ability to become a legend. Somebody who hasn't died yet. The player who survived.

If you die, of course, it should be possible to replay the game, in a whole different way, so that it won't get boring.

It shouldn't feel like, "Ugh, now I have to do it all again...", when you die.
Rather: "Oh boy... Let's try something else then."

This means the beginning of the game should be fairly easy, but still challenging.
Then getting graduately harder and harder, so you'd have to get strong, to continue.



So, story-wise:
There is no exact story. You are the story!



RE: Real permadeath - a thought experiment - Red - 10-14-2014

(10-14-2014, 02:12 AM)FlawlessHappiness Wrote: If you haven't watched Sword Art Online you definitely should!
http://www.lovemyanime.net/anime/sword-art-online/

Because I'm so caught in this series, I'm gonna show my perspective.
The game doesn't have to be short. Just replayable.

If it's replayable, then it doesn't have to be cheap either. Put some money in there, to make it awesome.

Now, story is the problem, I understand. (I didn't read through all the comments. Only the OP).
In Sword Art Online[...]
Spoiler below!

It's an MMORPG. Meaning you have a character. You level up, grow stronger...
But if you die, the penalty is harsh! You die. Also in reality.

Of course, such a game would never be released by any company, but here we're talking about dying, and losing your character. This could happen too.

Rewards for winning, and punishment for failing.

It could be amazing. You'd have to be careful. You'd have to be very careful.
But you'd have the ability to become a legend. Somebody who hasn't died yet. The player who survived.

If you die, of course, it should be possible to replay the game, in a whole different way, so that it won't get boring.

It shouldn't feel like, "Ugh, now I have to do it all again...", when you die.
Rather: "Oh boy... Let's try something else then."

This means the beginning of the game should be fairly easy, but still challenging.
Then getting graduately harder and harder, so you'd have to get strong, to continue.



So, story-wise:
There is no exact story. You are the story!

Great idea, bad anime, imo. If you haven't gotten to the second half yet, I can tell you this: you will be disappointed.
Give a shot for the Log Horizon, it's infinte times better implemented, and goes with the same idea: if you die in game, you die in real life.

RE: Real permadeath - a thought experiment - FlawlessHappiness - 10-14-2014

(10-14-2014, 12:12 PM)Rött Wrote:
(10-14-2014, 02:12 AM)FlawlessHappiness Wrote: If you haven't watched Sword Art Online you definitely should!
http://www.lovemyanime.net/anime/sword-art-online/

Because I'm so caught in this series, I'm gonna show my perspective.
The game doesn't have to be short. Just replayable.

If it's replayable, then it doesn't have to be cheap either. Put some money in there, to make it awesome.

Now, story is the problem, I understand. (I didn't read through all the comments. Only the OP).
In Sword Art Online[...]
Spoiler below!

It's an MMORPG. Meaning you have a character. You level up, grow stronger...
But if you die, the penalty is harsh! You die. Also in reality.

Of course, such a game would never be released by any company, but here we're talking about dying, and losing your character. This could happen too.

Rewards for winning, and punishment for failing.

It could be amazing. You'd have to be careful. You'd have to be very careful.
But you'd have the ability to become a legend. Somebody who hasn't died yet. The player who survived.

If you die, of course, it should be possible to replay the game, in a whole different way, so that it won't get boring.

It shouldn't feel like, "Ugh, now I have to do it all again...", when you die.
Rather: "Oh boy... Let's try something else then."

This means the beginning of the game should be fairly easy, but still challenging.
Then getting graduately harder and harder, so you'd have to get strong, to continue.



So, story-wise:
There is no exact story. You are the story!

Great idea, bad anime, imo. If you haven't gotten to the second half yet, I can tell you this: you will be disappointed.
Give a shot for the Log Horizon, it's infinte times better implemented, and goes with the same idea: if you die in game, you die in real life.

Not disappointed ^-^ Finished it today
Second part is "another book", so i find it ok. I liked the anime! Smile

Log Horizon you say? I'll look into that!

RE: Real permadeath - a thought experiment - Red - 10-14-2014

I suppose everyone has their opinions. The show sure was enjoyable, it wasn't horrible in that aspect, but it had its flaws, which were obvious and which lowered my take on the show.

But nonetheless, my conclusion for the anime is still that there's better anime out there, even in the same, unique setting. SOA was only the first anime to implement the idea.

There's second season for the show currently airing - just if you wasn't already aware of that. It covers both Gun Gale Online and Mother Rosario parts of the novellas, the last parts of the SAO saga.
To watch them, I recommend going to KissAnime, there's an option for both 1080p and for mobile streaming.
It also keeps strictly with the other animes that are currently airing in Japanese TV.