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Just a couple plot questions... [spoilers] - Bob Saget - 06-15-2009

Okay, so I've just played through Overture and Black Plague these past few weeks, and I just have a few questions.

1:
Spoiler below!
Why did the scientist that you gave the saw to try to kill you?

2:
Spoiler below!
What was the thing in the walls in The Kennels?

3:
Spoiler below!
If Phillip and Red were infected, how come they didn't become zombies, like everyone else?

Anyway, that's about all for now, until I come up with some more. Thanks in advance for answering them.

RE: Just a couple plot questions... [spoilers] - WindexGlow - 06-15-2009

Why did the scientist that you gave the saw to try to kill you?
He was infected. I haven't played the game in a long time, but he sawed his arm off no?

What was the thing in the walls in The Kennels?
I think that was the human which turned into a dog, or something. There are notes in the area about him.

If Phillip and Red were infected, how come they didn't become zombies, like everyone else?
I think they were being used as pawns for the tuurngait. Red wanted to die, but the tuurngait would not let him (thus why Philip had to)

RE: Just a couple plot questions... [spoilers] - Sexbad - 06-15-2009

(06-15-2009, 06:09 PM)Bob Saget Wrote: 1:
Spoiler below!
Why did the scientist that you gave the saw to try to kill you?
Spoiler below!
Since he, like everyone else down there was either dead or infected, and he was not dead, he was going to turn into a monster sometime or another. Possibly the pain of him cutting his own hand off made his immune system break down or something and the virus asserted itself in his mind and took over.

(06-15-2009, 06:09 PM)Bob Saget Wrote: 2:
Spoiler below!
What was the thing in the walls in The Kennels?
Spoiler below!
A kennel is generally used to keep dogs, so it was most likely dogs who broke out of the kennel and into the walls in search of food and prey and such.

(06-15-2009, 06:09 PM)Bob Saget Wrote: 3:
Spoiler below!
If Phillip and Red were infected, how come they didn't become zombies, like everyone else?
Spoiler below!
The process of infection probably takes a long time to build that varies from person to person and there is bound to be some small population of the Earth that will be immune to a certain virus or that can resist bits of it. In fact, speaking for the phrase "black plague," there is a population of people that inherited an antibody that developed to protect against the bubonic plague that now also protects from the effects of AIDS. Don't forget: Philip was only in the mine and shelter for about twelve hours. Everyone else was in there for years.

Also, the save artifacts gave you more of the disease. Philip used like forty of them throughout his journey and was on the brink of actually turning into a Tuurngait. Red had none in any of the rooms where he lived (if I recall correctly) so he probably rarely ventured out in fear of mauling by means of evil dog. He may have been trapped in the shelter of his for years and only saw his workshop's artifact thrice.


RE: Just a couple plot questions... [spoilers] - Bob Saget - 06-15-2009

Ah, okay... That all makes sense. I found the notes in the Kennels too, which I had overlooked the first time. :redface: But yeah, I also have another question. Was the "infection" a real virus, or just being possessed by the Tuurngait? Or both?

RE: Just a couple plot questions... [spoilers] - Sexbad - 06-15-2009

I'm guessing most likely an infection that compromises psychological and nervous centers of a person's brain so the Tuurngait telepathic mind, wherever it may be, can reach out and take over. It also obviously evolves the body into a state of more brute strength, male enhancement (not really), better aural perception, and lesser visual perception.

RE: Just a couple plot questions... [spoilers] - Renegade_ - 06-17-2009

Here's one that's a bit of a storyline conflict:

Spoiler below!
Why does Phillip feel bad about killing the (ex)Dr. Amabela? Obviously what Clarence said was a lie, because even if he were deceiving him, how would she come to perfectly stand underneath a weight threatening to crush her without suspecting a thing?
So either
a) She really was infected and he was not hallucinating (and therefore not his fault), but this makes little sense since her uninfected form re-appears. If Clarence were again causing this, Phillip would have to be pretty inept to think he actually killed a human, given (b).
b) She wasn't infected but was stupid enough to stand underneath a weight as she watched Phillip lower it (damn, that's trust)
c) Clarence has taken motor control of Phillip and forced him to kill her by his bare hands while at the same time portraying a different picture to Philip (which is sort of absurd and contrary to the story line that Clarence can only control perceptions).

Lucy, you got some s'plainin' to do.

RE: Just a couple plot questions... [spoilers] - Razalhague - 06-17-2009

(06-17-2009, 10:36 AM)Renegade_ Wrote: Here's one that's a bit of a storyline conflict:

Spoiler below!
Why does Phillip feel bad about killing the (ex)Dr. Amabela? Obviously what Clarence said was a lie, because even if he were deceiving him, how would she come to perfectly stand underneath a weight threatening to crush her without suspecting a thing?
So either
a) She really was infected and he was not hallucinating (and therefore not his fault), but this makes little sense since her uninfected form re-appears. If Clarence were again causing this, Phillip would have to be pretty inept to think he actually killed a human, given (b).
b) She wasn't infected but was stupid enough to stand underneath a weight as she watched Phillip lower it (damn, that's trust)
c) Clarence has taken motor control of Phillip and forced him to kill her by his bare hands while at the same time portraying a different picture to Philip (which is sort of absurd and contrary to the story line that Clarence can only control perceptions).

Lucy, you got some s'plainin' to do.

I'll just copypaste from the steam forums what I wrote on this:
Razalhague Wrote:
Spoiler below!
So, why did she do all that? It's rather simple, she really was infected.

The main thing here is that she can harm and kill you. Clarence doesn't want to kill you, later on he even helps you and warns you of danger a couple of times before you're ready to get rid of him. It doesn't make sense he'd kill Philip with a hallucination. Even if he wanted to, earlier we see what happens when hallucinations try to attack Philip: there's the greaking glass thing and nothing actually happens. No, the infected really was infected.

Then there's the fact that we never see Amabel during the video-chats. Add to that the fact that a person may sound quite normal and then a couple of seconds later turn out to be infected (as evidenced by the doctor who was going to "lend us a hand").

So, I think that Amabel had lied, and had in fact been infected. Instead of Clarence distorting Philip's perceptions before the killing (to make her seem infected), he distorted his perceptions after the killing, to make her seem uninfected. Why? I don't know exactly. If I had to say something, I'd say it was to make Philip feel guilty for killing her, so he wouldn't "kill" Clarence. Obviously didn't work like that, though.

Spoiler below!
It can't be b) because Clarence doesn't seem capable of causing actual harm to Philip, but the infected in question can. It can't be c), because even when Clarence's life is directly in danger, he can only disorient Philip.

Sherlock Holmes Wrote:When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Anger can make a person very irrational. I think it's quite believable that Philip didn't stop to think about the events in enough detail to realize how unlikely it would've been for the infected to really be Amabel.


RE: Just a couple plot questions... [spoilers] - Kedjane - 06-17-2009

1. He was infected. He was doing fine and all, but when Philip came around I guess the Tuurngait took control of his body and turned him insane.
2. Rock worms. That's why have to block the holes in the wall to continue.
3. Philip had the "luck" of being infected with Clarence, who had somewhat different goals compared to the Tuurngait. Red I don't think ever even made it close to the Tuurngait, he escaped the Shelter when he was just a kid and have been living in the mines ever since. If he was infected he probably found some way to deal with it, but it obviously made him insane.

If the "infection" was real or not is a though question, but I believe not. At first the scientists thought it to be an infection because of all the symptoms, but later (as Howard discovered) turned out "just" to be the Tuurngait. Still you manage to get Clarence out of your head in the end by taking some sort of antidote, don't you? Can't remember exactly what happens, but it is possible that one of the ingridients were "spirit repelling" or something like that (don't you mix that mysterious "sample" into the antidote?).
I don't believe the devs can answer that question themselves. I think mysterious materials, sicknesses, spirits and general confusion about who's causing what made them a bit confused themselves in the end and there is probably no straight answer to many of the mysteries.

(06-17-2009, 10:36 AM)Renegade_ Wrote: Lucy, you got some s'plainin' to do.

Ack. I've explained that one a whole lot of times. That's not neccessarily a plot hole, why would it be? It is fully possible that Anabel just standing somewhere in the middle of the room when Philip charged in, started running around like crazy, and she was like "?". He turns around, starts running towards the corner of the room and she goes to stop him - and passes just below the weight thing just as he drops it.
I can't remember how it works in the game, but didn't that weight drop pretty fast? If so it's very possible she just passed under it, didn't even think of it's existence and wham - was hit on the head.

(06-17-2009, 11:44 AM)Razalhague Wrote: Text

You even disproove yourself a number of times there, don't you?
Several problems with that theory:
1. Clarence does want to kill Philip, either so that he can get out of his "prison" of a body or so that he can start freely manipulating Philip's body like his own.
2. Amabels voice never sounds infected, nor is she infected when you see her dead body.

I've got to rush out into the real world now anyhow. End of post.

RE: Just a couple plot questions... [spoilers] - Razalhague - 06-17-2009

(06-17-2009, 12:54 PM)Kedjane Wrote: Ack. I've explained that one a whole lot of times. That's not neccessarily a plot hole, why would it be? It is fully possible that Anabel just standing somewhere in the middle of the room when Philip charged in, started running around like crazy, and she was like "?". He turns around, starts running towards the corner of the room and she goes to stop him - and passes just below the weight thing just as he drops it.
I can't remember how it works in the game, but didn't that weight drop pretty fast? If so it's very possible she just passed under it, didn't even think of it's existence and wham - was hit on the head.
You have to get the weight up first yourself. One would think she'd pay attention to something like that.

Quote:You even disproove yourself a number of times there, don't you?
Several problems with that theory:
1. Clarence does want to kill Philip, either so that he can get out of his "prison" of a body or so that he can start freely manipulating Philip's body like his own.
2. Amabels voice never sounds infected, nor is she infected when you see her dead body.

I've got to rush out into the real world now anyhow. End of post.

Point number one, I admit it's a bit ambiguous whether he wants Philip dead or not, but I don't think so (not until Philip's ready to get rid of him). I trust his actions (warning Philip of danger) more than what he merely says.

As for point two, you didn't pay much attention to my post, did you? I already explained why neither of those is a problem. The doctor who tries to saw off his hand sounds completely normal (aside from the random facts he occasionally spouts) only a couple of seconds before he busts out of the door as a mindless infected. And her "uninfected" dead body is just Clarence playing tricks on you.

RE: Just a couple plot questions... [spoilers] - Renegade_ - 06-18-2009

I'm generally in agreement with Razal.
Given as I said, that [c] is contradictory to the plot, then either:
Spoiler below!

a) Amabel is stupid for watching as a deranged man hoists a heavy weight above her head and proceeds to drop it. This obviously took longer than a few seconds, giving her ample time to move out of the way, what did she think was going to happen?

b) Phillip is stupid for believing Clarence's hallucination. Because of (a), he should know full-well (since Phillip = you = me, and I know full-well) that Amabel must have been infected and that Clarence was just deceiving him afterwards. Thus all he did was kill another infected, and so should not feel bad about "killing Amabel".


Seeing as Amabel is a relatively ingenious doctor (really, all you'd need is common sense to avoid (a)), and since I/we play Phillip, and I/we are not stupid (hopefully), then both (a) and (b) are plot holes/story-killers/contradictions, etc.

Also, for those unsure of Clarence's intentions:
Spoiler below!
I think it's pretty evident in the story that Clarence is under-going classical Stockholm syndrome, where at first he is under order of the Turngaait directive to imprison or kill Phillip for the greater good, he later begins to enjoy his symbiotic individualistic existence with Phillip. After time, he bonds with Phillip and begins to like individualistic life (as he questions himself: "I'm no Monkey... am I?"). So, towards the middle/end Clarence actually wants Phillip around so he/they can share the body (he knows he can never have it fully, since it would require intervention from the Turngaait to imprison Phillip and re-assume Clarence; but that would mean the end of individual life for Clarence, which he now enjoys). It's not until the very end that we can consider Clarence's delusional attacks as his full destructive capability; since he knows Phillip is going to destroy him, Clarence has every interest in killing them both. From this we can conclude that:
a) except for the very beginning and end, Clarence begins to enjoy the individualistic experience with Phillip
b) Clarence is not capable of anything more harmful than delusions

In fact, we see the irony play out at the end, when Clarence cheerfully claims he's found a new body, but just when he thinks things are finally going good (he enjoys being an individual), he is met with a twist of fate, and taken down by the brethren he had once-loved (but now abandoned) for being an individual.


Hopefully this analysis should clear up some confusion.