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+--- Thread: Is Sarang a complete idiot? (/thread-31070.html)
Is Sarang a complete idiot? - caffeine4671 - 09-30-2015
Or did he just not take Computer Science classes as a kid? Or anything remotely based on real science for that matter? If he did, he'd know that cut-and-paste and copy-and-paste both copy the original.
He and his followers should've changed their motto to "We put our faith in the reality of cut-n-pastey!", seeing as they tried doing that IRL.
RE: Is Sarang a complete idiot? - Ashtoreth - 09-30-2015
(09-30-2015, 01:59 AM)caffeine4671 Wrote: Or did he just not take Computer Science classes as a kid? Or anything remotely based on real science for that matter? If he did, he'd know that cut-and-paste and copy-and-paste both copy the original.
He and his followers should've changed their motto to "We put our faith in the reality of cut-n-pastey!", seeing as they tried doing that IRL.
From what I understand, Sarang didn't want two copies to exist at the same time because that would create a discontinuity in the being's existence: one would continue living in PATHOS-II and the other in the ARK. They would go through different situations, have different experiences, basically with time they would become two different entities.
There is an important difference between copy/paste and cut/paste: the first creates a copy of the file while keeping the original; the second moves the file from one location to the other, but you still have only one file.
In the ARK Project, cut/paste was not an option; it was only possible to create copies and place them in the ARK.
If you copy a document from your desktop and paste it into a pen drive, you can make different changes to each document, to the point where they'll become so distinct from each other that no one will be able to tell that the second was a copy of the first. They become two.
But if you delete the original document from your desktop, now you have only one file: the one on your pen drive, which is 100% identical to the original when you copied it, and you can continue making changes to it as you see fit.
This is basically what Sarang defended: remove the original (by comitting suicide) to guarantee that there would be a continuity in the entity's experience and thought. It would continue living on in the ARK.
Personally, I find it scary to imagine two copies of myself living at the same time in different locations. In the context of the situation they were in, I think Sarang's theory made sense. There wasn't much left to live for in PATHOS-II anyway.
RE: Is Sarang a complete idiot? - caffeine4671 - 09-30-2015
(09-30-2015, 02:54 AM)Ashtoreth Wrote:(09-30-2015, 01:59 AM)caffeine4671 Wrote: Or did he just not take Computer Science classes as a kid? Or anything remotely based on real science for that matter? If he did, he'd know that cut-and-paste and copy-and-paste both copy the original.There is an important difference between copy/paste and cut/paste: the first creates a copy of the file while keeping the original; the second moves the file from one location to the other, but you still have only one file.
He and his followers should've changed their motto to "We put our faith in the reality of cut-n-pastey!", seeing as they tried doing that IRL.
In the ARK Project, cut/paste was not an option; it was only possible to create copies and place them in the ARK.
But if you delete the original document from your desktop, now you have only one file: the one on your pen drive, which is 100% identical to the original when you copied it, and you can continue making changes to it as you see fit.
This is basically what Sarang defended: remove the original (by comitting suicide) to guarantee that there would be a continuity in the entity's experience and thought. It would continue living on in the ARK.
I guess.
It's absurdly idealistic and stupid though, for him to say "I will live on!11!! Long live the cut-and-paste!", no Sarang, your copy will live on, but you'll be a puddle of meat with cyanide in it; your particular instance of consciousness will die and your clone will have the illusion of having transcended via sharing the same mind and memories.And that's not how cut and paste works. Cut and paste doesn't actually move anything. What it does, actually, is make a copy of the file in the RAM buffer,then deletes the original immediately afterwards. Following that, the data from the RAM buffer is 'sent' (written)into the new location. It's still a copy though.
That actually makes the whole thing a lot more macabre, now that I think about it.
There's no true immortality and death is still final, just an illusion
RE: Is Sarang a complete idiot? - rubixcube - 09-30-2015
Isn't there something called file transfer? Which changes the location of the data without actually deleting anything?
RE: Is Sarang a complete idiot? - hollowleviathan - 09-30-2015
(09-30-2015, 04:21 AM)rubixcube Wrote: Isn't there something called file transfer? Which changes the location of the data without actually deleting anything?
Yes, when cutting and pasting files on the same physical medium, it will just change the headers so the new location points to the files instead of the old one. Which is why cut and paste on the same drive seems to go so fast.
However, it doesn't work from one medium to another, like between two different physical hard drives or, say, a brain to a futuristic drive.
RE: Is Sarang a complete idiot? - 1eyedking - 09-30-2015
Sarang and the whole continuity thing is a plot device added to generate drama about consciousness. I don't think a single player ever doubted about the stupidity of his actions because continuity is impossible if two separate entities are what happens after a brain-scan (Catherine even confirms this numerous times). What I don't doubt is that such stupidity could totally happen in a real scenario.
PS: Moving files from one medium to another always creates a copy. The only way Simon and Catherine could have gone into the Ark without needing to copy themselves would have been by physically inserting their chips into some sort of USB slot inside the satellite. But then we wouldn't had had the amazing ending after the launch...
RE: Is Sarang a complete idiot? - eddman - 09-30-2015
Yes, he is. Your copy is a separate being. It's an exact copy, yes, but it's not the original you. Well, it IS "you" but they are physically separate entities.
Killing or not killing your original self will have zero effect on the copy.
P.S. The brain scan and copying process in soma is very much like what happens in "The 6th Day" movie.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0216216/
RE: Is Sarang a complete idiot? - humanoid - 09-30-2015
(09-30-2015, 12:33 PM)1eyedking Wrote: Sarang and the whole continuity thing is a plot device added to generate drama about consciousness. I don't think a single player ever doubted about the stupidity of his actions because continuity is impossible if two separate entities are what happens after a brain-scan (Catherine even confirms this numerous times). What I don't doubt is that such stupidity could totally happen in a real scenario.
Its only stupid in the context of the ARK, as in an encapsulated world where its inhabitants have no connection/interaction with the real world (though its never brought up ingame if that would be possible, if not then I would seriously question the sense behind the whole "saving humanity" thing).
However things are a bit different if both the original and the copy have to coexist in the same "reality", like it was the case with Simon-2 and Simon-3.
Both would think they are the real one, each wants to live the life of the other, what other choices would you have but to decide that there can be "only one"?
And even if you would be determined enough to decide that its perfectly fine for the other you to exist, you can never know if the other you would suddenly decide to change his mind based on what he experienced after you copied yourself (enjoy a life in permanent paranoia
).PS: Cut and paste does the same thing btw, it copies the file to the destination and deletes the original afterwards (if everything went correctly).
Its really just a question of how you define "transfer" to answer if it is okay to kill the original after you got copied or if you should literally be moved "bit by bit", immediately deleting the just transferred data before waiting for the whole thing to complete.
RE: Is Sarang a complete idiot? - hollowleviathan - 09-30-2015
(09-30-2015, 11:12 PM)humanoid Wrote: Both would think they are the real one, each wants to live the life of the other, what other choices would you have but to decide that there can be "only one"?
I can accept that we are two individuals with the same memories, with equal and non-exclusive claim to my identity. If I do accept this, I should be pretty safe in assuming that my identical copy will feel the same way.
Sarang and the continuity cult seem to believe in an essential uniqueness to human identity based on memories, such that the personality drift between a brain scan and brain means that one of them must resolve to false, pretender. I don't agree with this, since I strongly argue that the act of running a brain scan is simply creating a brand new life, albeit with a full set of previous memories.
RE: Is Sarang a complete idiot? - humanoid - 09-30-2015
(09-30-2015, 11:34 PM)hollowleviathan Wrote: I can accept that we are two individuals with the same memories, with equal and non-exclusive claim to my identity. If I do accept this, I should be pretty safe in assuming that my identical copy will feel the same way.
You did read my last paragraph, right? (the one before the PS)
"pretty safe" is not 100%, your copy is not you anymore after a certain point (that is definition dependent as I mentioned in the PS) , you even said it yourself
(09-30-2015, 11:34 PM)hollowleviathan Wrote: the act of running a brain scan is simply creating a brand new life, albeit with a full set of previous memories.
This brand new life will certainly not experience the same things you do after the scan, it could get to a point where it might question your previous decisions, including the one not to kill the other you (which is actually pretty likely in a messed up environment like Pathos-II).