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The future of immigration - Mudbill - 11-20-2015

Okay, so I got the idea for this thread after watching some silly propaganda video against immigration. Hopefully it hasn't manipulated my rationality, because I actually agree with some of it.

Right, as people know there's currently issues going on with immigration. Firstly it's the fact that it's happening at this scale, but there are many more problems that need to be dealt with as well. The war in Syria is definitely a genuine reason to flee and immigrate, but can the west support all the people?

As sad as it might be, the west thrives because the east doesn't. It might not be directly because of their poor conditions, but more so because the west is greedy with importing resources. Europe's past is also a factor as to why it's so successful today, since governments and cultures have developed for long enough to sustain itself now. The imbalance of the world is why some select few places work extremely well compared to others. Equalizing it cannot be done, but if it were to happen, we'd all be in semi-poor conditions. That isn't going to happen.

Now, as for the refugees and immigrants, here's what I've compiled as a list of relevant dilemmas:
  • There are too many immigrants for the west to take in, if the west wishes to continue to operate at their level of success.
  • The culture of the immigrants conflicts heavily with the western ones, causing even more problems over time due to differing moral standpoints.
  • Many immigrants who commit crime manage to get away with it when the word "racist" is used, because the western people could have their lives greatly affected by such a claim.
  • For where the immigrants are accepted in large numbers, you can see that things are changing. Some white populations are becoming minorities in their own countries (take London for example), and the eastern culture is gaining power. All cultures have issues, but in my eyes, the eastern ones do lack too many basic human rights.
  • By taking in huge amounts of immigrants into the west, aren't we just bringing the problem here instead of fixing it where it occurs; in the east?
  • Some immigrants use Syria's condition as an excuse to immigrate. These are often Afghan people claiming to be Syrian. The issue here is that they leech money from the west to send directly to the east.
  • Some believe the immigration process is a decoy of ISIS to spread their influence in the world. Personally I don't believe this to be the main cause, but it definitely could be a side effect to take advantage of.

Some of these points might sound harsh, so feel free to knock some sense into me if they are unreasonable.

I've been fairly accepting of immigrants myself for a while, but as I'm starting to personally feel the effects of it, I'm getting somewhat worried. I can't say I'm too affected by it yet, but some of the things happening in Norway don't seem like very long-term solutions.

This video is fantasic in this sense, however it talks about immigrants that aren't fleeing wars, like in Syria. I support accepting refugees, but I'm more sceptical towards general immigration and I believe this guy is spot on with his explanation.

I could go on for longer than anyone would be interested, so I'll try to stop here.

What are your thoughts on the current immigration situation? What would you suggest be done about it?

RE: The future of immigration - Nice - 11-20-2015

There should be much more strict and stronger board control, with a limited amount of how many refugees are accepted because there's just too many and the fact is the majority arent as poor as portrayed. As I said in the other thread, they're throwing food and water away, burned a refugee center in my country.

So instead of sucking up endless amounts of war refugees/immigrants/opportunists, we should instead fix the problem that's causing all of this (ISIS) and obliterate it from the face of earth. If we don't, the refugee wave will never stop.

RE: The future of immigration - Mudbill - 11-20-2015

Yes, as long as they have a constant reason to leave their country, they won't stop. We need to make sure the east is habitable and safe. That's the only way we can stop this crisis.

RE: The future of immigration - Slanderous - 11-21-2015

Here's my two cents. Since I'm radical in terms of immigration, this contains some controversial stuff so read at your own risk.

Personally, untill they respect our lifestyle and culture I have nothing against it. Sometimes I read news about stuff like "Shariah Police" patrolling the streets, so called immigrants murdering people because they couldn't find a job or even worse - due to their religious reasons, or them calling out to break in to people's houses and slay them for their God, it just throws me away because of how fucked up that is. The western countries have allowed for WAY too much freedom of migration - very, VERY bad borders control, giving citizenship way too quickly or providing social money for these people which is the worst idea ever - firstly, a certain amount of money has to be taken from taxpayers as a % from the overall tax value, then YOUR money is given for people that have 7,8 oftenly even more children and thus they're getting more money stolen from you. You don't have a job and need money to live? Get one, and earn money. There's absolutely no way for social money to exist in this case. As long as they're able to work, they HAVE to work if they want to live. Social money should only exist in the case of disabled people, mothers with children that don't have any way to work and old people without any relatives to help them out with their financing. The second thing that bothers me is that I want them to assimilate with OUR culture. It's the MINORITY that assimilates with MAJORITY, and that never works in the reversed way. Europe is mostly populated with europeans that have their own lifestyle, languages, religions and culture. They should assimilate with us, it is NOT our buisness to run around and build mosques for them because of the tolerance reasons. I want them to respect our rights. This would work in a very easy and simple way: they respect our shit, and we partially respect their shit that doesn't hurt us in any way, without letting them to decide about our life. Third thing I'd like to mention is to make the military, safety and prison systems more strict. More professional soldiers, more police officers and more strict penalties for crimes - lifetime imprisonment/sending them back to where they came from for murders, rapes and other heavy doings. Less strict penalities for stuff like breaking in, stealing, etc, this should be punished with 15 - 20 years in prison.

Last thing, more strict borders control - removal of the "go wherever you please" European system, and returning to the system based on passports - with one you may cross. No passport? Sorry, get one and come back again. While I can understand people getting upset about it and even comparing it to communistic ideas, as long as the situation is not stable and the danger rises, there is no other wise way we can control the borders. I think what kills Europe the most is the current tolerance system (that focuses on ultra - tolerating others, letting them stomp into our lifestyle and our culture, chaning it for their own needs, and treating us, europeans like shit), the border system, and the social system - three elements I think need to be improved a lot.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot to mention. As long as the worst islamic countires were ruled by solid, ruthless dictators, there was no immigration crisis. Untill someone discovered the amount of petroleum lying on their territories and decided to bring their great democracy in order to overthrow the evil, bad dictators.

RE: The future of immigration - Mudbill - 11-21-2015

I agree with this even if I'm more hesitant to be as direct. I think that if it keeps going, shit will go down fast. I think it's better that we instead go to where there are problems and try to fix them. Now, that might be a very "white" thing to do, basically "eat my democracy!" but it's not all bad. Some of the old British colonies are better off today than surrounding countries, because of their influence.

Someone needs to be in control. Someone needs to make a system that works. If they can't make it themselves, I think that we should, because their negative systems are negatively affecting ours.

RE: The future of immigration - i3670 - 11-22-2015

Free immigration, but no economic benefits. That is the view I hold currently. If they're productive people they'll find work, if they're not they'll disappear.

RE: The future of immigration - WarGod45 - 10-24-2016

(11-22-2015, 03:07 AM)i3670 Wrote: Free immigration, but no economic benefits. That is the view I hold currently. If they're productive people they'll find work, if they're not they'll disappear.

I agree with this, there should be no social benefits for immigrants until they have contributed to the economy, I beleive that's how it is in most european countries.

RE: The future of immigration - Mudbill - 10-24-2016

A year old thread, but I guess the topic is still relevant. Immigration has had a very interesting turn lately. I might elaborate on this later when I have time to post a longer comment.

RE: The future of immigration - i3670 - 10-24-2016

(10-24-2016, 08:21 AM)WarGod45 Wrote: I agree with this, there should be no social benefits for immigrants until they have contributed to the economy, I beleive that's how it is in most european countries.

Not in Sweden, here they were more than happy to throw money on immigrants if they get through the red-tape. It's a bit different now since the Social Democrats did a total 180 and increased the amount of red-tape to an insane degree you have to go through. However, if you get through you're good for atleast 2 years of financial aid while you learn the language, if you're an adult. If you're a child which many immigrants lie about being to have an increased chance of staying, you're good for more aid.

RE: The future of immigration - Knickebein - 10-25-2016

It's fact that only 1 % are real refugees who needs our help. The rest are criminals and terrorists, an islamic invasion planned by ISIS to expand Islam on the whole world. They don't flee from war, they are the reason for war and bring the war to us. And the corrupt politicians from the West (mainly germans) are supporting these states with weapons and money. Believe me, I'm from Germany and Angela Merkel is ruining our country and the whole West together with America. It's all planned. Merkel is a dictator way more dangerous than Adolf Hitler was. It's already war on the streets of France, we have terrorists in Germany and Belgium. Islamists conquer whole regions in England. And everyone who criticize that will be called a Nazi. Believe me, we are destroying ourselfes.
Only Ungarn understand the truth and Victor Orban is the only politician who haven't lost his mind.