[SPOILER] Who’s who? Penumbra narrative puzzle - Printable Version +- Frictional Games Forum (read-only) (https://www.frictionalgames.com/forum) +-- Forum: Penumbra: Overture, Black Plague & Requiem (https://www.frictionalgames.com/forum/forum-5.html) +--- Forum: Hints, help and spoilers (https://www.frictionalgames.com/forum/forum-21.html) +--- Thread: [SPOILER] Who’s who? Penumbra narrative puzzle (/thread-4796.html) Pages:
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[SPOILER] Who’s who? Penumbra narrative puzzle - Nycticorax - 09-28-2010 That’s not by chance that Penumbra: Overture was nominated in 2008 for the best game scenario by the Writer’s Guild of Great Britain. It largely deserves it. The way the game pushes the player further in the dark is mostly successful because of its capacity to vividly arouse the desire of knowing-more-despite-that-creeping-thing-lurking-in-the-shadow. But still, as frenetic if not hysterical players, we can never be satisfied, regardless of how good the story is or how bafflingly the game ends. I am no exception, and since I got the serie two weeks ago and have just finished it, having no more puzzle to solve, let me try to grasp what I take to be the best puzzle of Penumbra ever, that is, the story of Penumbra. Here I am mostly concerned by Requiem, since the episode is obviously the bottom line of the serie, and since it presents the player with a quite challenging conundrum.
This short discussion is obviously NOT meant for players who have not yet completed the game and will largely spoil as much it is possible to spoil on this topic. After briefly rehearsing some voluntarily sparse but relevant chronological facts to bear in mind for those who haven’t played the game for a while, I will tackle the issue of how to understand some basic possible facts in the game. Although I survey all possibilities I take to constitute a narrative puzzle, I don’t say much about other itches or scratches affecting minor points in the continuity, which will have to be addressed elsewhere. Furthermore I don’t claim to give a conclusive answer, but only to limit the range of possible answers for the sake of logic and internal (fictional) consistency. For maximal consistency with the game, I shall assume there’s no flaw, be it in the design or in the storyline such as it is narrated and participated. If this assumption turns out to be wrong, let’s assume that my discussion bears on how the game could be interpreted had the developer(s) and/or writer(s) decided not to correct those flaws. For maximal explanatory power, I shall try not to rule out apparently strange hypotheses (in fiction, common sense and science are not sufficient for excluding logical possibilities), even if cannot guarantee that at some point a plausible possibility has never the less been excluded. Of course, I thank you in advance for pointing mistakes I could have made or hints I could have overlooked. It’s only through collaboration that Truth can be reached, if It can, or said to be out of range as I shall conclude. So let’s go. Spoiler below!
RE: [SPOILER] Who’s who ? Penumbra narrative puzzle - Mr. X - 09-29-2010 Woah that was one hell of a text! I had to read it 10 times to remember what you wrote lol I thought that in the ending of requiem where you enter the door, Phillip is back in the cabin on the boat and dreamt everything that has happened in all the games? Or was he like, teleported back there by the Tuurngait? For the other Red ending, i have no theories more than that Phillip dies and is never coming back :3 RE: [SPOILER] Who’s who ? Penumbra narrative puzzle - Nycticorax - 09-29-2010 (09-29-2010, 06:24 AM)Mr. X Wrote: Woah that was one hell of a text! I had to read it 10 times to remember what you wrote lolI hope you won't blame me for that.. Quote:I thought that in the ending of requiem where you enter the door, Phillip is back in the cabin on the boat and dreamt everything that has happened in all the games?It can't be since as I've noticed in c., the picture is not the same so it can't be the same cabin. Quote:Or was he like, teleported back there by the Tuurngait?No, because of the last remark. The best way of accounting for it is that it's a dream, or some altered reality. Quote:For the other Red ending, i have no theories more than that Phillip dies and is never coming back :3Well, as I've noticed, this interpretation is only consistent with hypotheses 2-i and 2-ii. But I think I've shown such hypotheses cannot account for some facts, namely the bonus email and the autonomy of the Tuungait. RE: [SPOILER] Who’s who? Penumbra narrative puzzle - nofsky - 09-29-2010 Very interesting post. There's a lot of stuff there that I never noticed or thought much about. I always assumed it was something like option 1-i, but perhaps that it was the Tuurngait hivemind putting him through these tests in his mind, but your explanation of him going through his redemption seems more likely. Even though some things make no sense with this scenario I think it seems to be the best bet. If you really want to know perhaps you could send an email to the writer, Tom Jubert and see if he wants to clarify things for you. Although the devs seems to have a policy of not answering questions about the game's plot, it might be worth a try. RE: [SPOILER] Who’s who? Penumbra narrative puzzle - Nycticorax - 09-29-2010 (09-29-2010, 06:11 PM)nofsky Wrote: Very interesting post. There's a lot of stuff there that I never noticed or thought much about.Thanks for you word, nofsky. I am not too confident about my findings and conclusions, but you're definitely right: I'll try to get some answers from him, if I can draw his attention to this post. (09-29-2010, 06:11 PM)nofsky Wrote: If you really want to know perhaps you could send an email to the writer, Tom Jubert and see if he wants to clarify things for you. Although the devs seems to have a policy of not answering questions about the game's plot, it might be worth a try.I've just sent it. Here it is if you're curious. I wonder whether he will answer. Spoiler below!
RE: [SPOILER] Who’s who? Penumbra narrative puzzle - Black Rabbit - 10-03-2010 my theory was (right after the game ended) that red was philip and that he became red after black plague or something...like a paradox? maybe red is a tuurngait lust like clarence and was there to punish those who trick that entity? so he entered philip as well and so that they don't do the same mistake and keep their existence hidden this time they also try to burn the character from requiem with philip who was by then consumed by red who was actually a tuurngait? remember when clarence wanted the philip to die so that he could return to the greater entity? and that red said release me from this "mortal coil" maybe he was also a tuurngait trapped in a miner...plus his voice was weird...just like that doctor who needs a saw in black plague...you know the infected ones talk funny and fast RE: [SPOILER] Who’s who? Penumbra narrative puzzle - Nycticorax - 10-08-2010 (10-03-2010, 01:55 AM)Black Rabbit Wrote: my theory was (right after the game ended) that red was philip and that he became red after black plague or something...like a paradox?If by 'paradox' you mean logical impossibility, then you yourself see that this idea is not really worth pursuing. Quote:maybe red is a tuurngait lust like clarence and was there to punish those who trick that entity? so he entered philip as well and so that they don't do the same mistake and keep their existence hidden this time they also try to burn the character from requiem with philip who was by then consumed by red who was actually a tuurngait? remember when clarence wanted the philip to die so that he could return to the greater entity? and that red said release me from this "mortal coil" maybe he was also a tuurngait trapped in a miner...plus his voice was weird...just like that doctor who needs a saw in black plague...you know the infected ones talk funny and fastI agree that Red seems to be infected. But what makes you think that it follows either that he is, or that he 'entered' Philip? Until the Player meets him in his hangout, Red is only a voice on the radio. And most evidence seem to suggest that Red, conversely to Clarence, is not a proper consciousness parasitic on some host's: that he shows deep concern about the Player's well-being is a feature of the empathy only a genuine person could show. To deny this would be to imply that Red is not a person but a Tuungait minion (like when we incidentally transfer Clarence into autonomous body). But how to account for the fact that he wants to help? You cannot reply that Red-as-a-proper-creature has retained some empathetic psychological features of it's former host, since were it the case, nothing would explain the aggressive behaviour of Clarence-as-a-proper-creature. Have you played Requiem? RE: [SPOILER] Who’s who? Penumbra narrative puzzle - Black Rabbit - 10-11-2010 (10-08-2010, 10:32 PM)Nycticorax Wrote:(10-03-2010, 01:55 AM)Black Rabbit Wrote: my theory was (right after the game ended) that red was philip and that he became red after black plague or something...like a paradox?If by 'paradox' you mean logical impossibility, then you yourself see that this idea is not really worth pursuing.Quote:maybe red is a tuurngait lust like clarence and was there to punish those who trick that entity? so he entered philip as well and so that they don't do the same mistake and keep their existence hidden this time they also try to burn the character from requiem with philip who was by then consumed by red who was actually a tuurngait? remember when clarence wanted the philip to die so that he could return to the greater entity? and that red said release me from this "mortal coil" maybe he was also a tuurngait trapped in a miner...plus his voice was weird...just like that doctor who needs a saw in black plague...you know the infected ones talk funny and fastI agree that Red seems to be infected. But what makes you think that it follows either that he is, or that he 'entered' Philip? Until the Player meets him in his hangout, Red is only a voice on the radio. And most evidence seem to suggest that Red, conversely to Clarence, is not a proper consciousness parasitic on some host's: that he shows deep concern about the Player's well-being is a feature of the empathy only a genuine person could show. To deny this would be to imply that Red is not a person but a Tuungait minion (like when we incidentally transfer Clarence into autonomous body). But how to account for the fact that he wants to help? You cannot reply that Red-as-a-proper-creature has retained some empathetic psychological features of it's former host, since were it the case, nothing would explain the aggressive behaviour of Clarence-as-a-proper-creature. well my theory is that red wanted to help in order to die..."they will nto let me die you see ...it's against the rules" so they had control over him "parts of my mind are not my own" and I thought that the entity that would not allow red to die entered philip after tuurngait found out he betrayed them (they probably found out because he got already infected once and his mind was open to them because the ordeals in the end of black plague take place in his own mind?) so they sent the entity that actually made Redwood to "Red" and made him enter the furnace himself this time asking from the new guy who went there to destroy them to join him...it's kinda strange logic but it is possible and I have played it xD RE: [SPOILER] Who’s who? Penumbra narrative puzzle - Nycticorax - 10-11-2010 (10-03-2010, 01:55 AM)Black Rabbit Wrote: well my theory is that red wanted to help in order to die..."they will nto let me die you see ...it's against the rules" so they had control over him "parts of my mind are not my own" and I thought that the entity that would not allow red to die entered philip after tuurngait found out he betrayed them (they probably found out because he got already infected once and his mind was open to them because the ordeals in the end of black plague take place in his own mind?) so they sent the entity that actually made Redwood to "Red" and made him enter the furnace himself this time asking from the new guy who went there to destroy them to join him...it's kinda strange logic but it is possibleTell me if I have understood correctly you theory: 1) The Tuungait has control over parts of Red's mind, but not over his entire mind, since 2) Red has enough 'will' to have someone halt his suffering, and for that very reason leads Philip to his quarter; 3) All since the beginning of Requiem Philip has been under the control from the Tuungait because the Tuungait seeks revenge both for Philip's treacherous email and to terminate Red, slipping out of its mind-control. Am I correct this far? And could you clarify your last point Quote:4) so they sent the entity that actually made Redwood to "Red" and made him enter the furnace himself this time asking from the new guy who went there to destroy them to join him...it's kinda strange logic but it is possiblewhich I cannot deal with, not because of logic but of grammar... RE: [SPOILER] Who’s who? Penumbra narrative puzzle - Black Rabbit - 10-11-2010 (10-11-2010, 08:38 PM)Nycticorax Wrote:(10-03-2010, 01:55 AM)Black Rabbit Wrote: well my theory is that red wanted to help in order to die..."they will nto let me die you see ...it's against the rules" so they had control over him "parts of my mind are not my own" and I thought that the entity that would not allow red to die entered philip after tuurngait found out he betrayed them (they probably found out because he got already infected once and his mind was open to them because the ordeals in the end of black plague take place in his own mind?) so they sent the entity that actually made Redwood to "Red" and made him enter the furnace himself this time asking from the new guy who went there to destroy them to join him...it's kinda strange logic but it is possibleTell me if I have understood correctly you theory: ok here goes: overture 1. Philip enters the mines and with Red's help reaches him 2.Red states that parts of his mind are not his own and that they won't let him die (Perhaps he wanted to warn the people outside so the tuurngait imprisoned him? perhaps they asked him the same thing they asked philip in Black Plague and he refused therefore they decided to torture him so they took control?) 3.Philip burns red Black Plague 1.Philip becomes "infected" by Clarence.Even though Clarence wants to be a single entity because he likes it he is still a tuurngait so we can assume that Philips mind is still open to the tuurngait presence even after he got rid of Clarence. 2. the fact that Philip can easily be controlled by tuurngait after CLarence's appearance can be confirmed since the tuurgait entity itself tests him in his own mind 3.Tuurngait ask him to keep their secret safe.He agrees but in the mail in the end he states that he lied.maybe a tuurngait entity was inside him at that time and knew his true intentions Requiem 1.The main character is NOT Philip but the character who got the mail 2.the new main character reaches the very same furnace Redwood (Red) was 3.I think that maybe Red was a nickname that was made up by the tuurngait entity that took over Redwood's mind just like CLarence decided for his own name 4.Since Tuurngait entities can alter their voice (just like it happened with the professor who needed the saw in black plague) I think that Philip is the furnace taken over by Red(the tuurngait , not Redwood the human) and this time he asks the new person who descended there to join him because maybe the tuurngait would not take another risk as to ask someone to keep their secret. they probably gave up on humanity's sincerity and decided to take them all down silencing them forever The reason I think that in Requiem the Main character is a different one is because of the ending e-mail of Black plague. since he asked someone else to destroy them why would he do it himself then? |