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Thought experiment regarding the endgame - GhylTarvoke - 08-04-2016
Spoilers, obviously!
What if the copying process (e.g. at Phi) required the subject to be asleep beforehand? Imagine the following:
You slowly regain consciousness. You remember that your name is Simon. You remember your journey through PATHOS-II, culminating in your arrival at Phi. You remember plugging in the Omnitool, sitting in the pilot seat, and loading the missile. The last thing you remember is Catherine putting you to sleep before the scan.
You're not fully awake yet. You currently see, hear, and feel nothing - but in a few moments, your bodily awareness will return. Now, here's my question: are you on the ARK, or are you still at Phi?
RE: Thought experiment regarding the endgame - Romulator - 08-04-2016
It'd still follow the same scenario. Both characters wake up and live on as copies in their own individual lives; possibly even unaware of whether the other exists. Simon is incapable of realizing that there are a few of him already, because he constantly finds himself under the impression his whole self is carried over.
When transferred onto the ARK, he believes it worked. When his robotic, structure gel infused self is not transferred onto the ARK, he blames Catherine for lying to him. There's a Simon at the bottom of the ocean in a chair; and another floating on the ARK.
As for whom you possess, it depends on whom you are. You are your own self in either a real, manufactured, or virtual being. You would control both, but neither other influences the choices in the seperate body. Mind A controls Simon-2, Mind B controls Simon-3, but Mind A nor Mind B can control the other.
So, you're within both, regardless of the sleep; and you will believe whichever mindset you end up in was the successful one.
RE: Thought experiment regarding the endgame - GhylTarvoke - 08-04-2016
I agree with all of that, but -
(08-04-2016, 12:01 AM)GhylTarvoke Wrote: Now, here's my question: are you on the ARK, or are you still at Phi?
I may have phrased the question badly, so let me try again.
Suppose you find yourself in the scenario I described. (And suppose you actually understand how the copying works, unlike Simon.) Then, while you're in the half-awake state, you try to predict what you'll see when you open your eyes. What should your prediction be?
RE: Thought experiment regarding the endgame - CrashHeadroom - 08-04-2016
Heh, Shroedinger's upload theory xD. The minute you open your eyes it messes the experiment up.
RE: Thought experiment regarding the endgame - GhylTarvoke - 08-04-2016
I like your analogy. Here's where I was going with my experiment:
Each Simon has a 50-50 shot at guessing where he is, because neither Simon can make an informed decision. Each Simon hopes that he's on the ARK, but only one of them is - and the Simon at Phi is justifiably disappointed when he opens his eyes. From this perspective, the "coin toss" and Simon's tantrums actually make sense.
RE: Thought experiment regarding the endgame - cantremember - 08-04-2016
The way I see it, it's not 50.50, but 0% if you also factor in the time.
If you're the one plugging in the omnitool and sitting in the pilot seat, awaiting in anticipation for the Ark you will always lose.
Because your mind can't be transfered and the moment you sit down the other copy doesn't exist yet.
A new instance will appear on the Ark, who *thinks* he won.
So in a way, until the point where you wake up in the deep-pressure suit, the game is a flashback of Simon-3's memories.
It's a bit iffy because the moment you regain conciousness your mind can't know until you see. You'd go to sleep knowing you will wake up in the seat again (not Simon because he's stupid)
But the copy would also regain conciousness, with his last recollection, or memory rather, being put to sleep, expecting to 'lose' and being surprised he wakes up somewhere else.
While Simon expected the opposite everytime, expected to wake up somewhere else, the copy carrying on like normal and the original acting in frustration or confusion.
So my opinion is the coin toss only exists in the copy's point of view, and also because SOMA largely blurs what is happening currently, and what is a memory you play through that actually has already passed. Someone who remembers something recollects it differently than living/playing through it like in the game.
It's a bit freaky in a way, because Simon-3 can't control his past entities, and doesn't even exist until you leave Omicron, yet the game plays exactly how he would have experienced the course of his conciousness.
RE: Thought experiment regarding the endgame - Mudbill - 08-04-2016
Yeah, I would say that it's not a 50/50 chance... but rather a 100/100 chance. 100% loss chance AND 100% win chance, both for the same person... but not for the same entity of that person. For the copy, it's a seamless transition. For the original, it's a perfectly normal continuation of their life.
RE: Thought experiment regarding the endgame - CrashHeadroom - 08-04-2016
Ever thought that the reason Simon doesn't get his fate is due to copy degredation? I mean by the ARK thats his 3rd clone (or rather his 4th time being copied when he gets on the ARK). Had to have had some side affects, got me wondering if thats the reason he sounds so...flat by the time of the climber.
I've also been thinking as to why Simon's not quite the brightest crayon in the packet either. Something I noticed on the ARK survey form when it asks you about A.I. entities...how they will always have a child-like mentality and can't really grow past that point. Food for thought ya know ^^
Also one last thing... Simon has a picture of himself walking and standing at a beach in his apartment...the W.A.U.'s first "glitch" was remarked upon to be a dream of someone walking over a beach and it looks like a males foot. They remark upon it being like a memory that W.A.U.'s replaying over and over to try to figure out when it happened. THEN take in to account, the vid-memory that pops up is before imogen gets scanned, she is the only other person in the game who walks on a beach. Bit weird having both the "mind" and "body" of your lead character have that little bit of back story no?
...well what if Simon's template was used in the W.A.U.'s creation and what if that was the reason the W.A.U. chose imogen's body? It's remarked upon twice during the game "are memory copies used in making A.I."...both times Catherine says no and then changes the subject rather quickly.
Think about this one, as the world is about to die and a race of people have asked a computer to define them...
RE: Thought experiment regarding the endgame - cantremember - 08-04-2016
I didn't really get the impression that it was intentional by the creators, at least not in Simon's case. But yeah he is quite catatonic about what and where he is.
Some of the other mockingbirds seem to be aswell, I think especially the zeppelins.
Some mockingbirds see things, and see themselves doing things that aren't really occuring too, like Semken and Simon who perceive their own bodies as being human ones, and the Helper in Delta thinks he's working on stuff but he's just floating around the ruins.
It's possible Simon's mind has degraded. But I think it's too easy for us to say he was dumb, because we know the game and setting better than Simon would have as he wouldn't understand any of the technology on PathosII beyond what resembles 2015, and to be fair, Catherine kind of misled him a bit too.
Though he should've known in Phi as by then Catherine had explained black on white that transfering minds wasn't possible.. maybe he just didn't want to think about the helplessness of his situation.
RE: Thought experiment regarding the endgame - GhylTarvoke - 08-06-2016
(08-04-2016, 10:42 AM)cantremember Wrote: It's a bit iffy because the moment you regain conciousness your mind can't know until you see. You'd go to sleep knowing you will wake up in the seat again (not Simon because he's stupid)
But the copy would also regain conciousness, with his last recollection, or memory rather, being put to sleep, expecting to 'lose' and being surprised he wakes up somewhere else.
Why should you be surprised to wake up on the ARK? No matter what, one copy will wake up on the ARK, and one copy will wake up at Phi; until you open your eyes, you have no reason to believe that you're in one place or the other.
(08-04-2016, 11:26 AM)Mudbill Wrote: Yeah, I would say that it's not a 50/50 chance... but rather a 100/100 chance. 100% loss chance AND 100% win chance, both for the same person... but not for the same entity of that person. For the copy, it's a seamless transition. For the original, it's a perfectly normal continuation of their life.
It depends on how you view probability. Suppose I flip a coin and then cover it with my hand. What's the probability that it's tails? One school of thought would say the probability is 1/2, because there are two equally likely outcomes. Another school of thought would say the probability is either 0 or 1, because the coin has already been flipped.
(08-04-2016, 02:58 PM)CrashHeadroom Wrote: Also one last thing... Simon has a picture of himself walking and standing at a beach in his apartment...the W.A.U.'s first "glitch" was remarked upon to be a dream of someone walking over a beach and it looks like a males foot.
I thought that was Imogen's foot.