Gothic

[Bridge]

But this is a signal that a game is not made to fight something primarly.

If - if - that is what they were going for it is still not good design. The controls are not horrible once you get used to them, but they are badly designed. You probably also realize how badly designed the keyboard you use to type is - it is extremely unergonomic and nonsensical, and yet none of us (usually) has a problem typing with it even despite its bad design. However, the fact will always remain that it is not the fastest and not the most comfortable system for this type of concept and no amount of practice will be able to compensate for that. If the combat is difficult for other reasons than the enemies deal a lot of damage or it ties into the story (your character isn't suited for combat), then it's bad design. Instead of fooling yourself by saying it's good design because it artificially places the player at a disadvantage and therefore it is more hardcore and less mainstream, just examine the facts. There are plenty of great games with horrible controls (some of my favorites).

[Ghieri]

But this is a signal that a game is not made to fight something primarly.

If - if - that is what they were going for it is still not good design. The controls are not horrible once you get used to them, but they are badly designed. You probably also realize how badly designed the keyboard you use to type is - it is extremely unergonomic and nonsensical, and yet none of us (usually) has a problem typing with it even despite its bad design. However, the fact will always remain that it is not the fastest and not the most comfortable system for this type of concept and no amount of practice will be able to compensate for that. If the combat is difficult for other reasons than the enemies deal a lot of damage or it ties into the story (your character isn't suited for combat), then it's bad design. Instead of fooling yourself by saying it's good design because it artificially places the player at a disadvantage and therefore it is more hardcore and less mainstream, just examine the facts. There are plenty of great games with horrible controls (some of my favorites).

I agree, If a game has horrible controls to compensate for difficulty, that's lazy game design.

[Googolplex]

I agree, If a game has horrible controls to compensate for difficulty, that's lazy game design.

Right. But don't think that about Gothic.
I don't understand why people could have problems with the controls, they are even very easy and precise. You just have to know how they are working.

And should remind that Gothic is an old game, while Risen has by far more user-friendly controls, but is a step back in design quality to become more popularity in international mainstream. Gothic is a game for a special niche of hardcore players, the game wasn't made to get much of money. The developers said that they never thought about what the mainstream wants, they just wanted to make their game. And most of the fans like the original Gothic gameplay more than it is in the modern titles since Gothic 3. The problem is that modern combat feels just like "click and death" and that ruined the typical Gothic atmosphere. But you will only understand that after playing all games in the series.

Gothic 3 for example looks great for a game from 2006, you can't believe that it's the worst of all Gothic games. But still a good game.

[Bridge]

Just finished it and have to say I was quite unimpressed by the end. The setting is of course superb and the first few hours of it are really amazing. Then it just becomes another boring slugfest with extremely tedious fetch quests and the storyline and how it's wrapped up is beyond cliche. By the end of it I really did not care at all, it was just too slow and uninteresting. Certainly there were some unique design innovations and I did enjoy a substantial part of it, but there was just so much squandered potential here. Makes me deeply disappointed actually, considering how well the game begins. I'd say it does not compare to the greats like Morrowind at all.

Also Googol, this game is extremely unfair. The controls just barely work and everything is very awkward to handle. It is especially unfair when it comes to combat, because it isn't possible to individually target enemies in a straightforward manner. If the enemies circle strafe around you and you have to slowly spin to target something, you are pretty much dead against the tougher opponents. Also I found the block feature often was unresponsive which got me killed quite a few times, disregarding entirely that the block feature is entirely broken (your player stops blocking momentarily every few seconds giving enemies an opening - I never understood that). How can you seriously enjoy that and praise it on grounds that is hardcore and uncompromising? It's just broken.

[Yuhaney]

Publisher forced the developers to release the game half done and then community made the rest in form of patches. Sad, but true story...

I was so excited about the game and then I actually felt offended when I bought the game and it was full of bugs, glitches and it crashed all the time. Combat is just awful button smashing and running around gets kinda annoying after some time.

[Bridge]

Publisher forced the developers to release the game half done and then community made the rest in form of patches. Sad, but true story...

I was so excited about the game and then I actually felt offended when I bought the game and it was full of bugs, glitches and it crashed all the time. Combat is just awful button smashing and running around gets kinda annoying after some time.

Oh, then it all makes sense. Basically the same as KOTOR II then. Amazing premise and story which gradually gets more and more shallow and fragmented and ends with a confusing ending (admittedly it's worse in KOTOR II's case as it almost doesn't have an ending). Is Gothic II worth it?

[Cuyir]

But this is a signal that a game is not made to fight something primarly.

If - if - that is what they were going for it is still not good design. The controls are not horrible once you get used to them, but they are badly designed. You probably also realize how badly designed the keyboard you use to type is - it is extremely unergonomic and nonsensical, and yet none of us (usually) has a problem typing with it even despite its bad design. However, the fact will always remain that it is not the fastest and not the most comfortable system for this type of concept and no amount of practice will be able to compensate for that. If the combat is difficult for other reasons than the enemies deal a lot of damage or it ties into the story (your character isn't suited for combat), then it's bad design. Instead of fooling yourself by saying it's good design because it artificially places the player at a disadvantage and therefore it is more hardcore and less mainstream, just examine the facts. There are plenty of great games with horrible controls (some of my favorites).

I agree and I will add to your point:

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls are heralded as the toughest games ever. This is just journalistic exaggeration (though there are a few bosses that drove me up a wall) but the controls are butter. Not once did I curse at my controller or did I use the layout as an excuse for the game being hard.

The challenge comes from the design, personal preparation (do I risk it and keep moving on or back away and level up?) and personal risks (I died more times than I would like to mention thanks to my poor risk taking).

That's good design. Oftentimes I was the one to blame because of my dying. Not that the game was cheap, not that the controls were retarded, nothing else. Just me.

A game, regardless of genre, design, focus, goals, etc. should ALWAYS make the user forget he/she's using a controller/keyboard. Not only would that mean that greater immersion is found because players aren't going ''WAIT WHAT THE HELL? I PRESSED THE KEY AND NOTHING HAPPENED AND DIED!" but that also means a more enjoyable experience.

And on another note: I loved Kotor 2. Sure, it was unfinished. Sure the ending needed work. Sure it was buggy (though I can't remember it being buggy for me). But I loved it. It found a natural explanation as to why you level up by killing people and such and how the relationships with the crew somehow shifted to you side, regardless of that person's force alignment. I loved that revelation. But yeah, needed a lot of work.

[Googolplex]

About which Gothic game we are talking? Only Gothic 3 was released as it was not ready and where the community had to work hard on a final polish - what they really made very well.

But Gothic 3 was very disappointing compared to the prequels. And not because of the bugs. But it's still a very good game.

Which game did you played now? Gothic 1?
I just have to say that all what you call "broken" is a very good thing of design. You couldn't block permanently that makes fights more challenging. You have to choose the correct timing at all. And that the player moves very slow is just a further thing I praise very well, because that doesn't bring the feeling of an action- or hack n slay game with kitschy "monster killing stuff". Gothic is very decent and not made to be a fun game.

Players have just different feelings of that. But Gothic is as it should be.
You have to befriend with the combat, otherwise the protagonist need to be stronger before survive a fight. The game also isn't focused on fighting something, it's just the player's choice. Of course there are some situations where you have to fight, but don't think that every creature in the game automatically is an enemy.

Gothic II is also very worth, but should play the "Gold Edition" including the AddOn "Night of the Raven".

[Bridge]

Which game did you played now? Gothic 1?
I just have to say that all what you call "broken" is a very good thing of design. You couldn't block permanently that makes fights more challenging. You have to choose the correct timing at all. And that the player moves very slow is just a further thing I praise very well, because that doesn't bring the feeling of an action- or hack n slay game with kitschy "monster killing stuff". Gothic is very decent and not made to be a fun game.

Players have just different feelings of that. But Gothic is as it should be.
You have to befriend with the combat, otherwise the protagonist need to be stronger before survive a fight. The game also isn't focused on fighting something, it's just the player's choice. Of course there are some situations where you have to fight, but don't think that every creature in the game automatically is an enemy.

Some? I'm sorry, but that is complete bullshit. Did you even play the same game I did? Not only is the game's story centered around "kitschy monster killing stuff" almost half the game is combat. Did you completely miss the several HUGE fetch quests that span the entire map where you have to complete very unimaginative encounters before getting the item you require? Or the ridiculous encounters in the last temple where you have to flee several times and return after healing because not only is it basically impossible to heal in combat the combat is so awkward that before you can even target a monster the entire group can surround you and hack you to pieces? And I had the maximum HP and then some, had the best armor and even an amulet that protects against damage from weapons. How does it make sense that I am more invulnerable than a Terminator and yet a group of temple novices, which I can kill in 2-3 hits can kill me in 5 seconds? There are also several situation when two powerful monsters are attacking you and one of them circles around you or worse yet flanks you and there is no way to quickly target him to attack him. And how can you honestly defend the broken blocking mechanic by saying it requires precise timing? It's broken, the character has no reason to lower his sword at all. It's obvious that it was not designed that way because the animation doesn't even make sense. It just stops and then resumes in a very jarring way.

As I said I thought the first few hours of the game were amazing, but it just degenerates into a boring RPG with a typical story, no character development whatsoever and one tedious slugfest after the other. I'm sorry, but you are just deluding yourself.

[Cuyir]

He's cray cray for that Gothickay.

But serious question, goog:

Would you like it *anywhere* as much as you do if it wasn't developed by Germans?

Maybe i'm out of bounds, but it does seem like there's some sort of nationalistic pride making you give Gothic more credit than it deserves.