Opinions on how TCR & FG are dealing with AAMFP criticism

[LuckyBlackCatXIII]

Wow, patronizing and apologist much? (Doesn't feel good when talked to like that, does it? Both sides have valid views on this issue. While I find your side an interesting POV and appreciate getting to see how some people on the other side of the fence, so to say, see all this, try to do the same and respect other's opinions as well, yeah? Because, for someone who isn't a fan of the company, you do come off as a strong apologist. Just a heads up. )

On a lighter note I am glad to see I'm not the only wall o' text person around here, I was actually feeling a little self conscious about it and have been trying to hold back lately when responding, ha ha! That said, I'll put my own argument under a spoiler tag as well to keep from taking up so much space. Heads up, I won't agree with most of what you said BUT the fact you wrote this much is both impressive and shows you took a lot of time to think about this. Good on ya, I appreciate that (I'm also going to be writing a lot too so sorry about that).

Spoiler below!

No, they're not "reacting to the harshest and loudest of criticisms". What they're doing is playing the victim and avoiding taking any responsibility. THAT is what frustrates me to no end. I can't speak for The Raining Brains or familiar mindsets but yes, I am "angry much", I'm glad you noticed because that's what I was conveying!

The Chinese Room is a company. No matter what they say, when it comes down to it they are a company down to the bedrock. As a company, you try to find your niche and aim towards a certain audience. These will be your customers, after all. Customers can be very fickle but if you provide them enough with the things they enjoy they'll stay loyal. TCR was good at aiming their earlier games to the people who appreciated it the most but made the mistake of advertising AMfP to a group that was obviously not in their usual neck of the woods. While it was a very daring thing for them to do, good on them again, to be naive enough to not expect a large amount of backlash was plain arrogance on their part. So when they react the way they do they come off like the idiots more than those yelling "IT'S NOT MAKING ME SHIT MY PANTS" or "IT'S NOT A GAME I CAN'T ENJOY IT". (I would like to say about that last argument, while I can understand where that person was coming from it was pretty silly. That doesn't make Dan any less of a prick for being a dick towards them though).

Does anyone remember the Amy's Baking Company debacle that happened a few months back? Remember how she took criticism? While TCR's reaction wasn't even close to her crazy rants, they still reacted in the same way: "You just didn't understand. You did something wrong, not me. Why are you complaining when our product is clearly flawless?"

This is where people get angry. It's like Axe commercials. People have problems with them. Some will defend them saying "well it's all tongue in cheek humor!" yet that still doesn't change the fact that they're sexist as Hell and paint women as items/men as mindless sex addicts who only obey the penis. But the company does nothing to change it because, clearly, it's doing well enough to get revenue, so it only irritates people more since they won't get over themselves and just try to improve. They're steadfast in their ways and basically giving the middle finger to anyone who complains. Pretty annoying, isn't it?

Because TCR is a company first, this leads to one of the biggest factors that riles my anger towards them: the fact they're an indie company. I really like to support indie developers and I want them to excel! Indie devs shake things up, they take the time to make the games that major companies don't. They're usually the golden nugget in a pile of shit shoved at the gaming community. They're practically underdogs so you just want to root for them! Then TCR acts rude, generalizes, uses straw-man arguments to win their arguments and it gets harder and harder to wish that company good will. Ghieri's reaction put it well: it's a huge let down. These people practically look down their noses on their customers and that's pretty damn insulting!

Now if they're going to use the excuse that they're artists first and then a company? Then they need to learn how to take criticism even more. That is Art 101 and not enough artists take this to heart because people like TCR only perpetuate the notion that 'people just don't understand your work' or 'it's art, it's subjective/this wasn't aimed at you ergo it can't really be criticized then!'. NO. This is not how art works, sorry to burst your bubble! Criticizing art has become a really difficult subject between the 20th-21st century but, in the end, it is valid because art is a form of communication and a connection to human emotion from creator to observer. There is nothing wrong with being in love with your work, your vision. Not everyone will enjoy it, as you said! I fully agree! But they aimed this towards a group they knew wasn't their main focus. That doesn't give them the right to stick your fingers in your ears and shout 'LALALALA' when people are trying to voice valid criticism. As someone who is an artist as well, who has been studying under/experienced the subject for a good time now and believe video games can be art, seeing 'artists' act like this really grinds my gears because (and I've mentioned this plenty before) I have to deal with this mentality all the time. Seeing grown ass men and women acting so petty and childishly is disheartening and aggravating. Seeing people (like yourself) giving them excuses to continue acting like this is just as aggravating as well.

I actually found Thomas' letter very sweet too. That was really nice and supportive of him! But see, that's what makes Frictional Games a more enjoyable company to root for because for all we know they could be a team of assholes (disclaimer: I personally don't believe that at all since the moments of interaction I've had with them/seen in the past have proven them to be decent, kind people). But they put on a good face that doesn't feel like they're weaseling out of things or patronizing their customers. What they do right is they admit their faults, sometimes to the point of not giving themselves enough credit, they challenge themselves to make better games and better stories. They advance which leads to them producing better and better games. TCR stagnates. FG could be labeled a one trick pony (Lovecraftian-Survival-Horror-Puzzle is clearly their thing) but they throw in enough changes after hearing their own/ players criticisms to keep each product fresh. TCR is the same game over and over with just a different story (I'll give AMfP a little leeway by saying they added a bit more interaction than 'just press W to win' but it was still severely lacking).

With Thomas' sweet gesture in mind, you claim/show examples where TCR was respectful of FG. I'd agree but it feels a little catty when Dan talks about FG not liking/adding jumpscares then later on goes on and on about how HIS game doesn't have jumpscares (it does Dan) but FG's has so many of them that those youtubers sure love (Not denying ADD didn't have any either but I still feel their execution was much better than AMfP's)! I won't lie, maybe I read too much into those parts but it felt like he quickly changed his tune to make his work seem like the more superior by throwing FG slightly under the bus.

I might not have conveyed this strongly enough in my past posts but hey: If you enjoyed the game more that ADD, good for you! I mean it and that goes to all of you who enjoyed it. I'm happy you had a fun experience, I actually wish I could have shared that sentimentality! I really do, I really wanted to enjoy this game (for the story mainly because I enjoyed it so much in past FG games). I don't agree with you at all about AMfP/Mandus being the better between the two or that some of the games you listed have as good narrative as you state. But that is your opinion and that's just fine. I'm not going to touch it because in the end that is how you feel and you've made it clear in past posts.

The main fact that stands is this: They chose to put out their story under the Amnesia title which means, as much as it sucks to do so, the two will be constantly compared. They chose to sell this to a different audience than their regular. They put themselves in a vulnerable position and instead of being modest and admitting their mistakes they instead pinned the blame on the people who supported them by buying their game in the first place. They deserve all the critiques given to them.

PHEW I think I'll be able to post smaller replies from now on after getting all that down!

[Cuyir]

@ Black cat: i've stated before that I respect both sides of the argument, including ones that are diametrically opposed to mine. An apologist i'm not. I've been critical of their reaction to the massive amount of hatred (and legitimate criticism) they've gotten in the past. Still am. Still don't consider AMFP their gift to gaming either.

They're reacting to what has stucked in their mind and what interviewers ask them. And yes, they were wrong on judging the Amnesia fanbase, i've said this in the past. They GROSSLY misjudged the fanbase. And i've also spoken of how they need to learn to take criticism, analyze said criticism and decide what's a legitimate criticism and what's just someone having a hissy fit.

He didn't throw FG under the bus. Like I said, he basically just communicated that TDD was lets play friendly. That's the truth. Didn't feel snide to me. A farming simulator isn't as exciting as a Need For Speed game for youtube lets plays, wouldn't you agree? And they didn't choose to "place an amnesia in front of the game", FG did. FG did it by giving THEM the job. Everyone, FG and the fanbase, knows what TCR are all about so, yeah.

In sum, they have some legitimate points about their focus for the game and the criticism they've received (some, guys and girls, not saying they're 100% correct), they just had some pretty bad missteps (analyzing and responding to criticism). If they had taken this in another way, we wouldn't have this thread. We would just have an endless discussion of why AMFP is good/sucks.

[LuckyBlackCatXIII]

Everything else aside since we've both said what we want to say I am going to touch on this.

And they didn't choose to "place an amnesia in front of the game", FG did. FG did it by giving THEM the job. Everyone, FG and the fanbase, knows what TCR are all about so, yeah.

If FG offered the job to TCR (emphasis on "offer") then TCR knew what they were getting into. Not saying FG did no wrong in any of this (not that I'd say it was wrong per se but you get what I mean... hopefully) but they did not force this on TCR. It was offered and TCR took it. They agreed to it being a sequel. They agreed to having the Amnesia name be stuck to it. This was an opportunity to follow up, expand and deliver to an already established audience, not so much as a chance for TCR to stand underneath the FG banner and hand out their own personal philosophy about games.

While it's easy to assume everyone knows TCR and what their taste on games is like, not everyone knew what they were getting into. People don't always put massive amounts of research into what they buy and that really can't be blamed since it's something done on a daily basis. Personally yes, I know what TCR is all about, I still went into the game optimistic. On the other hand there are those who didn't know about TCR at all. Still makes their critiques valid and doesn't exempt TCR from said critique.

[Statyk]

I've got to stop coming back to this thread... My emotions hurt.

[Paddy™]

The "second Dark Descent" he speaks of in that Guardian article is the one he had been talking about since February 2012, while at the same time developing an entirely different one. To say that it was the fans of TDD who were responsible for envisioning this impossible sequel is a cop-out.

Dan, try to have a memory longer than 3 fucking weeks. Re-read the things you've had printed in the gaming press since last year and then come back and tell us we're the architects of our own disappointment, as you seem to imply. Not that I was disappointed, personally. I liked the game! But these articles and interviews are fatuous, condescending and pretentious.

[Froge]

Anyone who played the game for four hours hated it, and anyone who played over six hours loved it

tcr pls read

--> http://www.frictionalgames.com/forum/thr...#pid262188 <--

[Damascus Rose]

Anyone who played the game for four hours hated it, and anyone who played over six hours loved it

tcr pls read

--> http://www.frictionalgames.com/forum/thr...#pid262188 <--

Nice review, but why was it posted in the off-topic section? lol.

[Froge]

Edit: and wow, what the FUCK is that blog/interview paddy linked.. I have never seen such ridiculous ass-kissing like that in one of those interviews. "The developers' deep intelligence about how stories can manipulate the mind
,"A Machine for Pigs provides a lasting imprint on players that somehow is more psychologically manipulative","Curry and Pinchbeck seem sharply intellectual".. what the hell. And whoever wrote this does not seem to even understand what amnesia TDD is about. "That game was popular for its jump-scare qualities, its ability to frighten in small intense doses, to elicit squeals from players and the makers of online Let's Play videos." What the actual fuck, that sounds like a description of outlast. Sure TDD had jumpscares and frigtened in small doses, but it was all about slow grinding psychological horror. And about amfp: "This new kind of horror hasn't leant itself to the YouTubers who flourished on the drama of publishing video of The Dark Descent's jump scares." No... there isn't any different horror in pigs. There's just less of it. And it obviously relies more on jumpscares to scare you. This is just disgusting to read.. so fucking pompous and pretentious..

Probably one of those arthouse gamers who fervently support indie companies because they're s0d33p.

[Wapez]

Long ass text that made a surprisingly lot of sense.

You sir, deserve a beer and two hot blondes in a pool in Costa Rica.

[Damascus Rose]

Probably one of those arthouse gamers who fervently support indie companies because they're s0d33p.

Yeah. It's especially infuriating because the stuff he's praised amfp for is made up bullshit. "the sequel departs from the idea of jump scares and shock, and goes for a nihilistic, languishing, pervasive horror, the sort that stains your memory and has you lie awake at night, long after the game has been turned off. It's really a matter of how the developers interpreted the genre."
This upsets me. I don't think he understands that horror wasn't even the main focus in this game, he thinks that somehow this game is just a different kind of horror, one that's more psychological and has no jumpscares like the original! This is just so wrong, I don't even think I have to explain why. But it hurts me. Is he confused? Is he trying to describe the dark descent? I don't know, but I should probably stop paying attention to this, it's too painful.

Even totalbiscuit got upset about this interview, he never said anything like Dear esther is destroying the games industry. https://twitter.com/Totalbiscuit/status/...3358907393