Execution / Game

[Mechavomit]

Meh how? Clunky? Hard to control?

Meh as in it was just "there". Compared to all the details they put in the world and story, it felt to me that the gameplay was very average for a game that was so praised. Every time an action bit started, all I wanted to do was to get it over with, so we could continue with the story. Maybe I'm asking too much. Maybe I shouldn't care because pretty much everyone likes the dad-figure/girl scenario (I know I do).

But that's my opinion. I like to complain about things.

[Bridge]

@ Bridge: MGS4 is pretty tiresome. You're explained a whole timeline of events up to that point in the first 1/4 of the game. Then a big important character comes in and shatters everything you were forced to watch and memorize. THEN another character does the SAME thing and then AGAIN. It got tiresome. It made me look back on my experience of MGS4 poorly because of it.

The fact that you use the words "forced" and "memorize" suggest to me that you weren't that invested in the storyline in the first place. MGS has never put any strain on me - I love absolutely every second I play one of those games. I guess I'll see when I play it.

And as for TLOU: watching isn't the same as experiencing it first hand. Watching a lets play of a videogame is sort of the equivalent of being told what happened in a movie without seeing it.

It isn't the same experience, but it is not the equivalent of being told what happens in a movie. In fact, watching a Let's Play is like watching a movie period. I perceived and noted all of the nuances you mentioned and appreciated them, that does not mean the game is not full of overused ladder and pallet "puzzles", features too many inorganic and uninspired zombie encounters and stealth/shootout sections and has gamey contrivances like upgrades. Still, the game has some beautiful art and level design and solid story/characterization. The music I was mostly neutral about. At times it was impressive but it was mostly boring (even if it "fit" the game).

Case in point:

Spoiler below!

The scene where Ellie is trying to start the car and the player has to stop pushing it every 5 seconds to fend off zombies. Both me and the let's player were just frustrated and annoyed at an otherwise tense scene being padded out by such unnecessary interruptions.
Having to dismount the horses to fight off enemies when Joel and his brother are looking for Ellie. Completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the scene. They even lampshade the fact that Ellie managed to get by them unnoticed.
The wave of enemies that comes from seemingly nowhere near the start of the winter level.
The sewer section that is crawling with enemies.
Basically every other normal fight, if not more.

These are offset by other sections that are amazingly executed, but I found the majority of the gameplay to be unrepresentative of the story. Besides, the mere fact that characters utter a line or two of spoken dialogue after or during combat for example doesn't necessarily mean the story and gameplay are connected. There were certain scenes where it was, but not always in my opinion. This is in no way my attempt to bring it down a peg or anything like that. I've already said I consider the whole to be irreducible and singling out certain aspects while sometimes useful is not how you critique a game. I'm just arguing that the game doesn't marry its elements as well as you say, certainly not enough to warrant being called the most perfect game or anything like that. Discredit me for not having experienced it first-hand if you wish, but I experienced basically the same aspects as you did with the exception of one - which I have some insight into.

Morrowind is incredible. It's a great game. It's a masterpiece. Wouldn't call it high art. Its gameness brings down other elements, which is where my whole stance on the topic rests on.

In the strictest definition of high art, it's not possible to call any videogame that. If you mean that you don't consider it to have artistic merits in general - then why? I realize it may be hard to explain, but I really am curious. The game is full of nuanced details and subtleties that just bring the world alive to me.

[Kreekakon]

Huff, well I seem awfully late

There are no good stories, only good execution

Looking back on my favourite books, films, and games, I can honestly say that their plots weren't really that good. Take Amnesia for example: "Naive Britishman chased by malicious otherworldly entity seeks to save himself by performing immoral occult experiments." Or just look at any really popular film: "Crime-ridden city terrorized by insane clown is saved by hero who only presents himself in a bat costume." What made all of these stories actually interesting was how they are executed. Amnesia was a good game because the immersion and the notes made us feel that we were Daniel, and thus we felt sympathy for him when we learned the truth behind his story.

Which leads me to believe that "good" stories don't exist - only good communication. I'd argue that all stories fit one of two categories: a personal experience, or an imitation of another's personal experience. The only thing that makes one story stand out from another is how they are communicated to its audience, but there is no such thing as an inherently "better" story. Do you agree or not?

I can tell you from personal experience that this I believe is completely, and utterly untrue. I think it is definitely possible for a mediocre plot which was mediocre to begin with to still end up just that even with masterful execution.

The main game that came to my mind when you brought this up is actually one of my favorite games of all time: Fire Emblem Awakening, which you can listen to me ramble about in full length here (First bracket): http://www.frictionalgames.com/forum/thread-23144.html

The story I feel was definitely the weakest part of that game, but as I mentioned in my thoughts I thought it was masterfully executed. It was able to take mundane moments, and bring a sense of urgency, and emotion to the scenes through pacing, and sound design. However even with all that when you peel it back, I still cannot shake off the idea that the foundation of which the plot is based on was still a bit uninspired, boring, and cliche.

So basically what I think is that if you had to weigh the two (Execution, and actual story foundation) I would still say that execution is the more important one, because it can convey what a creator wants us to feel from a scene, and affects our suspension of disbelief.

However even with that being said, as with the example of Fire Emblem Awakening I pointed out above, you need a respectable enough story foundation to begin with to achieve a stage where execution will be able to carry your whole thing through. Without one, you'd basically have an idiotic plot which is too hammy for its own good.

[Cuyir]

@Bridge: I didn't say it was the perfect game. I did say it had the ''gameplay galleries'' i've mentioned for all the games so far. I just said it was the only game I could think of that married gameplay with its other elements without being too clunky. Games at their core will always be clunky to me. The fact that with all the videogames i've played in my life only one of them I can single out and go ''yeah, that one balanced the elements pretty well'' is basically why I can't consider gaming the highest art form.

And nothing against you personally, but I really don't consider watching lets plays the full experience at all. The only lets plays I watch are funny ones, not the ones where people are playing games seriously for ''the experience''. But then again, I loathe lets play culture for the most part (''THIS GAME IS THE BEST GAME EVER BUT I DIDN'T PLAY IT, I ONLY WATCHED A LETS PLAY!!!1111''). When I watch lets plays I don't get the experience, I get a really limited experience with some guy/gal talking over the game and making me wish I would be doing something else...like playing a game; but that's with the serious lets plays i've attempted to watch in order to understand the fascination. Games are about interaction, removing that by watching a lets play is counterproductive.

As for MGS, i'm not the biggest fan of Kojima and his overwritten style and Hollywood wanking melodramatic focus...but I do enjoy the games i've played. Remember, my experience of MGS4 post credits was dragged down by the silliness of throwing multiple walls of cutscenes of exposition at the player only to say ''NOPE'' and start over. I was enjoying it beforehand. So those words are used because i've finished it and my experience suffered because of it. If I had been asked what I thought about the game before they had started pulling that silliness I would have told you something like ''oh it's interesting stuff'' or whatever. I loved MGS3 (one of my favorite games ever), never cared to finish MGS2 (eh...) never had the opportunity to play MGS1 and MGS4 was a game that did so many things well...only to then annoy me at the end. Even still it was a damned good experience, save the silliness of exposition and overwriting dreck at some point in the game. I think I laughed out loud at one of the scenes where they trod all over the timeline saying ''NO, THAT WAS NOT IT, IT WAS THIS!''.

As for Morrowind (and games as art overall): games do have artistic merits, mostly in their individual elements (visual design, music, voice acting, etc.). There are games whose gameplay and experience are married damn well and some people call those art. Sometimes the marriage of those elements isn't as cohesive (example: the core game is surrounded by everything else but not as connected) but because the GAMEPLAY experience is special some people consider them art. Morrowind was clunky but I consider it a masterpiece and a poor example to gaming being ''the highest form of art''. Too many moving pieces bring games down to just being games (which i've already said).

Personally I don't bother classifying games as art. I don't care if people call them just games. I don't care if journalists say this or that. All I care about is my personal experience for the most part. It being or not being art in anyone's mind doesn't affect me. Do I consider TLOU art (seeing how it's the single game at the top of my head at the moment for marrying the elements so well)? Hrrrrrrrmmmmm no. I approached this discussion in a ''gaming can't be the highest/high art because...'' and brought up TLOU because it uses all the elements well enough to make it slightly less clunky than usual. It's an example as to why games aren't high art and how even the ones that manage to do it so well still suffer from the gameplay limitations which makes games ''just games and game-y feeling''. But I guess it depends on someone's definition of art. Problem is i've never really cared lol.

What do I think about TLOU? A lot of things. It made me feel a lot of feelings and I could write a castle of text worth of my opinion on TLOU but I won't lol. Just a great game that surprised me in all the right ways. I've been told before that my opinions on some games (Dishonored, Dead Space, TLOU, Metroid series and more) are basically me seeing the games i'm most passionate about in the same way people view art. But i've never really cared and never categorized a single game as art (consciously).