Graphics and physics engines, wich offer what i want?

[the dark side]

Hello, sorry this message is so late, i read peoples posts this morning, but ive spent the whole afternoon playing through favourite bits of my "inspiration" games (ie the games im using to test my own Ips ideas out on), and i think ive come up with some cures for a few problems.

okay, answers time!

@aldigheri , Dont Worry, i am not doing this project myself, i havent got the budget, know how, or intellect,. for that, heck, i pretty much blew my budget just getting the Ip copyrighted!

I am going to do as much as i can personally, wich is about 80% of the phase 1 Development and about 60% of Phase II, i dont have the know how or intellect for phase III (programming), Phase 1 and 2 is stuff like concept art (got a mate at deviantart doing that!), level maps, Plotline, synopsis form, Storyline, charachter bio's, Acheivement list (sadly, you need cheevos to get steam certification these days ) etc. the only bits of that i can't do myself are the concept art, my drawing aint all that good, but i've got a mate covering that, the dialoque script (i can only do scene outlines as i am not a professional screenwriter), and the weapons list, because, well, you get looking at weapons sites here in the UK and you are gonna have whitehall 1212 pay you a visit, wich also means i cant do all the cheevos as i dont know what all the guns are gonna be. once i have all the work i can do myself, im handing over to wichever one of my interested Developers (and ive got some real pros looking!) can land a publisher who is going to agree to all the stipulations in my copyright lease (stops them stabbing me in the back if i only lease the copyright, they have to abide by MY rules).

yes, i know there is more to a classic FPS than the core shooting gameplay, but, thats not the point, as Duke Nukem Forever proved, if your core FPS experience is Crap, than all the little extras, no matter how well done, are going to fail. That is why i only covered the core FPS gameplay experience i want in my list, so the developer who gets the game will be able to use an engine that will be able to deliver the core experience properly.

The rest of the cool stuff a Proper Silver age throwback needs, such as tactical decision making regarding how to tackle the AI (wich uses Half Life's "factored Ai" system), Puzzle solving, procedurally generated set peices, etc, comes later. i am more than aware that what made half life brilliant was its Puzzles and its Tactical decision making, but that comes after you have got the Core shooting correct. as i said, if your core shooting is bad then youve got another Duke Nukem Forever rather than a modern day Soldier of Fortune 1.

@obliviator.

hmm, seems i have got a bit of a arcade/simulation imbalance here, i hadnt noticed it before, thanks for pointing that out! you saved me from a very nasty mistake there pal! now, before i answer your 3 points, i will state now that i am NOT going to modernise the game, Modern shooters bore me to tears, and as i said, this is MY IP, so im gonna make the game I want. fegg anyone else. so i am NOT introducing a gun limit, NOR am i slowing the pace, and NOR am i adding expanding crosshairs because i think those elements suck AND blow, if you do not agree with that decision, then fine, that is your perogative, , i would appreciate it if you at least tried it via the shareware version if i ever get a publisher hooked, but i wont go demanding you like it, after all videogame taste is a subjective thing.

I am also not going to dumb it down for new gamers, as the game is not aimed at them, its aimed at Experienced PC gamers who were around in the original "Silver Era", and possibly the "golden era" before that, any sort of dumbing down is going to anger them (i know that for a fact, as an experienced PC gamer myself, i get right angry when a game is dumbed down for "new gamers" because i feel patronized!) and loose me my target market, and i know for a FACT i wont get the casual market because the game doesnt have "Call Of Duty" written on the box.

i would rather produe a game thats a bit silly and unrealistic and get my target audience than have a more realsitic more COD style one that isnt going to attract anyone because the market for COD clones, if it has escaped your notice, is thankfully, collapsing!

your points.

1. Please!, Dont patronise me on guns. i come from a military familly, i also know that most guns are not all that heavy really, i mean, fully loaded, an M16A4 with 30 rounds in its box, and a 40 MM in the m203 undermount, only weighs 6 pounds, lighter still if you dont have the m203, even the heaviest guns, such as a PKM, only weigh about 12 pounds, with spare ammo, thats about 20 pounds. Fully loaded, a british soldier can carry 200 pounds, an American soldier about 160. now, the reason that weight slows a modern shooter charachter down is because they are based on US soldiers, who, i am sorry to say, are not very well trained in weight disribution. the UK army however is, a Uk soldier is expected to do a 20 mile run in two hours with full kit, he is also expected to be able to make a 2 metre jump with the same kit, and that is a standard squaddie!

2, yes, i will agree that not having a gun limit is unrealistic, but come on, this is a VIDEOGAME, they are supposed to be ENTERTAINING!.

I am sorry, but gun Limits are Frustrating, BORING, and also quide you by the hand, they remove all tactical decision making, and any exitement from the game goes out the window as well,

Example: if there is an SVD dragunov lying around in a game with a gun limit, you know you are gonna need to do some sniping, IMMEDIATELY, as the script will spawn some snipers as soon as you swap your shotgun for the rifle, if you dont have a gunlimit, then you can hide the SVD somewhere were there isnt gonna be sniping, that way, the player KNOWS there is going to be a sniping section, but they dont know where. that way, when a High Velocity sniper round suddenly bursts a window near you about 10 minuites after you collected the SVD, the player is gonna jump out of there skin, and there adrenaline will spike, wich means they will enjoy the game more, as it making there pulse pound.

Also, as i said, having a gun limit also removes any form of tactical decision making, because all you need to do is put the AK47 in slot one, and the Spas 12 in slot 2. that covers all bases. Without a gun limit, you need to decide what gun is best for what tactical situation, say you have a room full of US secret service operatives armed with Mp5-a6's loaded with Glazers (a bullet that has 24 balls of 00 lead shot encased in liquid cupronickel under a plastic nose, basically, being hit by one is like having a double barreled shotgun go off with both barrels into your chest at point blank range), those rounds are going to tear you to shreds, and those guys are both well trained, and have Reflex sites, combine that with the MP5 a6's blazing fire rate, low recoil, lowered even more by the Mullins E40 Vertgrips on there guns, and naturally high mechanical accuracy, and you are gonna get pwned if you dont get them all before they can hit you, so , you need to make a tactical decision, do you use the CAWS-90 and prey you dont run out of slugs before you kill them all? use your own Glazer loaded Secret Service Spec MP5? or load up the m249 with a 200 round belt and turn the room into an abboitoir? in short, what an Unlimited armoury looses in terms of realism, it makes up for in terms of ENTERTAINMENT and THAUGHT.

3. Just because a game has static crosshairs, it doesnt mean the gun is going to work like a lazer rifle and hit dead straight every time with no recoil!

Did you ever play Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Project IGI, Soldier of Fortune 1, Nightfire, or Medal of Honor: Frontline? those games have Static crosshairs, and yet the also have bullet drift, muzzle rise, and recoil kick, its just they take a more "sim-cade" approach to it, with a modern, "realistic" game, with expanding hairs, if you say, fire off the Mp40 on full auto when circle straffing, you will be lucky if ONE of its 32 rounds is going to hit something, sure, thats realistic, but its also downright boring, popping up from behind walls in ADS may be realistic, but it is NOT a fun way to play a videogame!

With RTCW or MOHF as examples, yes, you will still have rounds from the MP40 miss the target when fireing on full auto while circle straffing due to bullet drift, muzzle rise, and recoil kick, you will only have 8 rounds out of 32 miss, the other 25 will hit true. in short, your accuracy is only hampered by the inbuilt mechanical innacuracy of the weapon used, not the fact the shooter has been BARELY trained and does not know how to handle the weapons recoil competantly.

With a highly trained charachter who is extremely proficient in firearms you can get away with Static Hairs, because his training means he can manage most the recoil, with the only rounds that miss being due to Muzzle rise or Mechanical innacuracies inherent in the firearm itself, the Animation to show this ability is very simple, in fact its in the original "project IGI", you let loose on the AK47 (actually an AKM-but, i wont split hairs, its a good game) in that, and it kicks like a mule, but the bullets will still hit home if you fire in bursts, as you will see Jone's arm has tensed up and he is physcially COUNTERING the recoil of the gun with his muscles, as an SAS operaive, he is trained to counter recoil, the only time you will start missing is if you fire for too long and the muzzle rise overwhelmes your strength.

in fact, the static hairs and mild innacuracy of a silver age shooter is actually more realistic than the "you cant shoot unless in ADS" stuff of modern shooters, soldiers are trained to be able to shoot accurately from the shoulder, in real life, in a battle you dont have TIME to aim down the sites, or take cover, you need to be able to fire and kill on the move,. come on, John Mullins, the REAL John Mullins, will tell you that, hence the high on the run/ circle straffe levels of hip accuracy (even with the expanders turned ON in SOF II's case), in the first 2 SOF games, wich he actually helped to create!

Look, realistic videogames are NOT FUN! the whole point of a videogame is it is supposed to be entertaining, if i wanted a realistic war experience, i would join the royal marines, when i play a videogame i want to be ENTERTAINED.

now, as you pointed out, i do seem to have an imbalance between a hyper realistic environment, simulation vehicles, and silver age gunplay, and, although i quess having an Unrealistic charachter in a Realistic environment is no more or less Silly than say, the "Uncharted" games, wich put a "realistic" chrachter in an environment so unrealisitc it borders on cartoon territory, i will do something about that.

the question is, what. as i refuse to change the gameplay, and i dont want to loose the destructable environments, wich, actually, i havn't put in for the sake of "realism" like you assumed, i actually put them in because i learned with the classic 2 Red Faction FPS games, blowing the poop out of walls with a pump action grenade launcher is a Heck of a Lot of Fun!.

so I am going to need to change the art style and make the vehicle mechanics more "sim cade" (think forza motorsport for vehicles and Hawx for planes and heli's). and im not sure with what to do there, as i want to give the game a sort of "Half Life 2" feel. clearly fantasy, clearly exaggerated in terms of art style, and yet still with JUST enough realism in the environment and gameplay to feel just enough grounded in reality to be plausible! wich makes the player actually care about what happens in the game, and the people in the game world.


leave it with me, when ive thaught of some answers, ill sound them out here and see what people think.

on the map thing, i am actually REALLY glad your baught that up Obliviator!, as i went over my level maps, and... i...got...lost. hell i DREW the damn things and i got lost... well, i am not going to dumb them down into a corridor, thats not a good idea, as that would seriously annoy my target audience, and im not going to dumb them down with a on screen minimap or waypoints, as again, they are ruddy annoying, patronizing as heck, and clutter up the HUD, and i want a nice, smart HUD. basically crosshairs in the middle, and weapon icon, ammo readouts, health and armour (IF in military gear! you CANNOT wear amour in "civilian" clothes and you are limited to just health) all grouped round each other in a small area to the bottom right of the HUD.

so i thaught, what about having something like IGI 1's Map computer?

so if you do get lost, you can call up the GPS on your charachters smart phone (GPS quick acitvate is M on default keyboard), and view the map, wich will highlight objectives, but not secrets, giving you some idea of were to go, i'll also put things in the environment itself to show you were to go, such as road signs, or military base signs, etc, dont worry if they are in a foreign tounque, i've already decided that if you hold the hairs over them for a few seconds, the charachter will read the sign to you in english.

using the map computer well, may also enable you to make a tactical decision, and seeing as im not giving too much level info away here, ill actually give you an example tactical Decision!

Say you've got a NASTY checkpoint ahead, chock full of soldiers with Gp25's on their AK47's, if you try and ram the URAL truck you have through it, your going to get blown up.. so do you? attack head on? jump off the cliff, swim around, climb up another cliff, and attack from behind and try to have the element of suprise? or Open the map computer, notice a ruined abbey on a nearbye hillside with computer controlled artillery in the ruins, get back in the URAL, drive up to the abbey, kill the soldiers there, hack the computer, and blow seven bells of tar out of the checkpint with the artillery, then just go and mop up whats left with the aks-74-u? tactical descisions like that are always good, it lets the player choose how THEY want to go through the level, instead of forcing them to go thtough the way some micheal bay wannabe in burbank, so-cal, wants them to go Through.

ooopppps, nearly forgot.

@ acies. i agree, i miss the innovation old games had too, especially when you consider some were really cool innovations that have not been seen since, like how you could interact with computers with your keyboard in SIN. the only other 2 games ive seen that in were Wages of SIN, and SIN Episodes. a shame, as it was a COOL little innovation. dont worry, my own IP has plenty of innovations of its own, as well as a few old freinds from other games we havnt seen in a while, its just i dont want to share them in public because i dont want them stolen.

as you baught up crosshair colour, well, i dont mind sharing them,. they are white by default, green if targeting an ally or civilian, and red if an enemy is targeted, unless you activate "colour blind" mode in options, then they are still white by default, yellow if an ally is targeted, and purple when an enemy is targeted.

I know about the budget thing, hence the need for a pre existing engine, as the budget most of my interested devs reckon they could get from a really gutsy publisher, is, at max, £4,000,000. with that i should be able to mix great silver era gameplay, with top notch graphics from either a Heavilly modified version of Source, or Cryengine 3 if it can handle the old school level design and gameplay mechanics. if ithe budgt is lower, than planned, well, SOURCE is still more than good enough, but, im gonna have to lower some of my requriments, and im worried using such an elderly engine could harm sales.