POLITICS

[SchnidlersLeest]

@Cuyir:

My computer and the comfort of my home have to do with nothing the result of government interference, but rather the freedom people had to build such things, if that's what you're suggesting. People forget that the government doesn't actually produce anything. And no, I'm not suggesting that we take down the current government and replace it with a new one, based on preferential feelings, but that the system is fundamentally flawed and immoral for what its basis is.

Getting people dependent on the government is NOT a good thing at all, in just inherently obvious ways that will soon make themselves clear through the government running out of money and no longer being able to support all the people it's supposed to be paying. That is a complete disaster and is not an indication of the government doing something correctly, rather a gigantic reason for why it doesn't work. It was not a contradiction; I said it was stupid to expect the government to PREVENT chaos, but the former example was how the government actually CAUSES chaos.

"Anarchy for anarchy's sake."

I don't know what this means. And if freedom is an impossible ideal why do you try to have any freedoms at all? Why not live in China, or Cuba or any communistic totalitarian country, if the ideals of freedom are just an illusion?

Thank you for putting words in my mouth. I did not say that "chaos is good."

"Thing is, as you've stated before, anarchy only lasts till a group comes out of it and forms a government. What then? Still haven't answered me that"

Again, I didn't say that. Anytime any super power has gone down in the past, anyone who wants to control people sees the opportunity to take the place of that super power because people still thought that they needed a government. So, when governments have gone down in the past, they were expecting and hoping for a new one to rise up and replace it; they weren't hoping for anarchy. And yeah sure, anarchy would only last until a government reemerges, but it's like saying "the universe will only last until it doesn't." Well, yeah, but we don't know if that will ever happen and it doesn't really matter if it does come back, because it was at least better that was TRIED to get rid of it. It's like saying you shouldn't try to get rid of cancer because it might come back.

@Dogfood:

"If you honestly think that governmet is doing nothing at all, then you're really wrong. Government is holding the "place" together, the country."

The government holds together the "country" like a farmer holds together a livestock pen. It's just to keep you there so that they can continue to get from you what you produce. And the "country" is an abstraction, there is no physical mass called a "country." There are planes, mountains and rivers etc., but none of those things are connected to something called "the country." It's not like all the land mass would start falling apart if it weren't held together by something called "the government." it's just arbitrary lines to keep you penned in. You have people who are in the government, and you have people who aren't in the government. That's it.

" If it weren't for laws, government and police...What would stop me from killing every guy that just looks at me ugly?"

So you're telling me that you would just start killing people if there weren't laws to hold you back to do so? That sounds pretty psychotic. And if it's just that you know someone who would do that, I would try to get as far away from them as possible.

And if your opinion is that the majority of people are psychotic murderers then we're doomed either way because we live in a democracy!

"Anarchism aka having no laws and government would throw us further back than stone age"

So if the government suddenly stopped taxing you and its power ceased, all of your technology would disappear and you would be rediscovering how to use tools made out of bone, and your ability to understand language would be gone, and cars will disappear and cities will disappear and... I'm not too sure about that.

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Human interactions and societies are more complex than ''lets cause chaos and start again''. Society is complex, economy is complex, we are complex (and shallow too but that's another point completely).

And that's exactly why we can't have a government that has to figure out what direction society goes in, because there's no way of knowing!

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I don't see that happening through anarchy or through a traditional government. I see that happening in some point in time where humanity reaches new plateaus of thought.

I think I could settle on that. You're right that people will need to become aware of the violence in the state and its wrongness. We're not going to get rid of violent hierarchies by violently overthrowing the current one. I do not think society is fully ready for the transition to anarchy for it to happen in the near future, but if it did suddenly happen and all governments closed, it wouldn't be like "AAAHHH CHAOS" "AAAAHHH GENOCIDE." I know its offensive to say to someone that they've been lied to and are now delusional to some degree because of that, but of course governments are going to want to say that anarchy leads to more violence, because anarchy means they lose their power.


"What's the alternative?"

The alternative to having rulers is to not have rulers. :p

When I was saying that I felt the argument was stupid, I didn't say that I thought you were stupid Cuyir, or anyone whose argument I may have commented on, just to make that clear. :p