Daniel and Phillip

[Froge]

I'm not exactly sure where to put this thread, so I'll just place it under Amnesia. There are, of course, spoilers for both Amnesia and Penumbra.

All factors considered; e.x. level of danger encountered, amount of emotional stress and trauma experienced, difficulty of challenges faced, value of goal achieved, etc. Who overall had the "greater" journey, Daniel in Amnesia or Phillip in Penumbra? Of course, 'greater' can mean a number of things, so in this case let's take it in the perspective of a horror experience. For lack of a better word, who had to face the more "epic" horror in their journey? You don't necessarily have to put yourself in their shoes to answer - also consider such things as their individual character development as well as the value of their goal achieved. Was it more important to the world to kill Alexander or to wipe out the Tuurngait virus? (of course the latter's up to interpretation, but the games would've been pretty pointless if Philip didn't manage to succeed)

[Adny]

Scariness Endured: Daniel
Castle Brennenburg is no doubt a very creepy place to be in - but to have Amnesia and make the epic journey that Daniel did all the way to the orb room to confront his enemy, is downright terrifying. Philip had a general idea of what he got himself into at the beginning of Overture, whereas Daniel was left completely in the dark* on the matter. Taking into consideration many enemies from Penumbra were just mutated versions of every day creatures, Amnesia's enemies felt really unique; even though 2 of them were clearly humanoids of some sort, there was still something friggin' terrifying about them. In the end of the day, ask yourself this: Weird alien with an uncut umbilical chord, or a flappy-jawed humanoid with man breasts?


* = GET IT? AMNESIA'S A DARK SCARY GAME. HAH.


Emotional Strain Endured: Philip
He encounters very few "friendly" external entities on his adventure, but the true uniqueness of their character and the relationship built with them, just to have them torn away is something truly awful. Whether it was pulling the lever on the incinerator to bake Red to a fine crisp, or dropping a heavy crate on the innocent and cheerful Amabelle Swanson, it no doubt took a toll on Philip's - as well as the player's - psyche. Oh, and there's Clarence. He's a funny guy.

Danger Encountered: Philip
Although Daniel faced some terrifying monsters, I'll give this to Philip. The environment alone had way more dangerous encounters; the icy lake, the small caving-in tunnels, dangerous automated machinery, Oh My! In addition to the environment, there were giant spiders, nearly zombified dogs, Tuurngait infected humans, and a big-ass rock Worm. Philip you brave sonovabeech.

Difficulty of Challenge: Philip
(see Danger/Emotional parts), all of those elements combined, I'd say Philip's journey was more difficult by far.

Value of Goal Achieved: Philip
Daniel's goal was only for the sake of vengeance, it had no effect on anyone in the world except for him, Alexander, and depending on the ending you chose, Agrippa. Philip's quest started out innocent enough, but he ended up finding an ancient super virus that had been disturbed from its resting place in uninhabited northern Greenland. Just by the sheer number of people it affected, Philip's goal (at least the goal by the end of the game) was much more valuable; it directly effected the Earth, and mankind as we know it.

Overall Epicness: Philip
It might just be the fact that it was a trilogy instead of 1 game, but the epic tale had so many twists, turns, and emotional road bumps, I'd definitly say Penumbra was the more epic journey. In Amnesia, it feels like you're discovering things about the protagonist as the story advances, which is fine, but for me really broke the feeling of being one with the character. It felt like I was being shown exhibits in some museum, as opposed to experiencing the events first hand as done in Penumbra.

[Froge]

I'm going to have to both agree and disagree with you there.

AGREES: Danger encountered. This is more true for Overture than Black Plague, as there were several particular places in Overture where you could potentially die every time you took a step (the ice lake and that steam vent place come to mind). The worm chase was also more intense than anything Daniel's gone through.

DISAGREES: Well, let's start with the value of goal achieved. First of all, I would argue that Daniel's quest was anything but vengeance. I suppose it started off as a vengeance quest, but realistically it goes much beyond that. To start, if Alexander had succeeded in returning to his home world (let's just say he didn't for the sake of storyline; Amnesia wouldn't make sense if Daniel allowed himself to lose), he would have pulled off the biggest karma houdini in the history of anything. The world of Amnesia implies that an afterlife exists, as shown by the scene if you choose Agrippa's ending. And before you go all relativistic on me, I'll mention that if you go with Daniel's ending, he also says "I gave them that awful man," which further implies that some absolute form of justice, divine or not, exists in the world of Amnesia. Heck, the Shadow kills Alexander but spares Daniel for no real reason if you knock down the pillars. The universe must be angry as fuck with him.

We can only assume that Alexander has been up to his villainy for a few hundred years, which likely means that he's probably tortured just as much people as the Tuurngait virus has infected. Half the people that are infected by the virus don't even seem that tortured; some are perfectly happy being part of the hivemind. But just about every person touched by Alexander died an unbearably painful and torturous death. Daniel's statement, then, that "I gave them that awful man" must mean that his quest is not just payback, but ultimately also of balancing the scales, to not only avenge himself but also every single person Alexander has tortured.

Emotional Strain: Sorry, but I wasn't feeling much of Philip's "connection" with Red, Clarence, and Amabelle throughout the game. Red was really the only person that I ended up caring for, although he is clearly insane, as there's that one scene from Overture where I believe he goes berserk and insults Philip for "helping to guide him" and being ignored or something like that. As for Amabelle, I felt extremely suspicious of her, as there's that one part when she says "One of the symptoms of being infected is deja vu" twice, so I thought she was trying to trap me the whole time. And maybe this is just a personal thing, but I don't think I could really feel "connected" to someone I've never even seen before, so although I felt immensely sorry for Red when he died, I don't think it could've been mind-melting trauma. Though I would be pissed as fuck if I saw that I accidentally killed Amabelle.

On the other hand, Daniel experiences absolute soul-crushing guilt when he realizes just how badly he's been manipulated. See, the problem with guilt is that it's very hard to do something about it. Lost a very good friend and / or loved one? (Although I doubt Red was that close to Philip) Yeah, it will wear you down and you might sink into depression, but eventually it wears off because the human brain is very good at adapting and moving on. This is something I have experienced myself before so I know exactly how it feels to never be able to see someone you love and care about ever again.

Guilt, on the other hand, will burn away at your very sanity. It stays with you and becomes a part of your conscience. When I entered that room Red had lived in after killing him, I did feel remorse that he had to die. But when I read that note about how Daniel realizes Alexander had tricked him all along, I had gallons of sympathy pretty much oozing out of myself for him. I can't even imagine how it would feel to know that you just tortured and murdered several completely innocent people, one of them even a child. If I was Daniel I wouldn't even have reached for the Amnesia potion. I'd just have taken that knife and offed my own head. Oh yeah, and that ending where you stay and die in the cells? That's probably one of the most disturbingly sad conclusions I've seen in a video game, especially with those tortured voices being replayed from Daniel's memory in the background.

Overall Epicness: This one actually comes very close. Penumbra definitely shows more interesting moral and philosophical questions than Amnesia, especially the ending of Requiem when you can decide to either "rejoin" the mass of conformity that is humanity (which is no different than conforming to the Tuurngait hivemind, imo) or to kill Philip in the incinerator. However, I would have to give the edge to Amnesia for a number of reasons.

Firstly, Penumbra seems much more a journey through the self than Amnesia if you look at it wholistically. I would say that the incinerator ending is generally considered to be the "good" ending of Requiem, so I'll go with that in terms of plot. What does Phillip achieve by burning himself to death? Well....nothing, really. Why is he trying to deny his own humanity? Humans are social animals. We're made to conform, to exist in collective societies. Most of us are happier when we are obeying exactly what authority tells us to do. Yes, I know it's kind of sad, but it's the truth. I would even say that I'm happier when I'm conforming than when standing out. Individuality comes at such a heavy price.

Right, Phillip tells his friend to terminate the Tuurngait Virus. But this is really up to interpretation; we've yet to know whether his friend does it. Furthermore, as I've explained before, the Tuurngait Virus doesn't even seem all that evil....some people appear perfectly happy to be part of the hivemind, whereas Alexander is, quite clearly, an insanely deranged and selfish psychopathic maniac. There are also some things with the Tuurngait that seem more laughable to be than, well, "evil". There's the acid trip Philip seems to go on when he gets infected, which didn't even scare me all that much - I was too weirded out by it to feel much "horror" (with the exception of those creepy-ass hands sticking out of walls). The Tuurngait's voice in the last part of Black Plague when Philip goes through the trials is also so typical omniscient-entity-evil like that I thought it was totally cliche. Finally, as a pet peeve of sorts, Tuurngait is a bit dumb, in my opinion. If it wants to convey to Philip that it isn't so bad, why does it turn people into....weird demon-like things that have leaking umbilical cords? Most effective strategy I've ever seen.

I'll make my thoughts about the "epicness" of Amnesia brief. Firstly, it is known that, while the rest of the world passes by, Alexander just sits in his own little corner, randomnly torturing people unlucky enough to wander into his path. He is established as a villain that lurks in the shadows; unimportant enough to avoid being caught, but still a heinous being. All previous attempts to bring down Alexander, or at least reason with him, have proven unsuccessful as shown by Klass and Gabriel's Remember stories, even including the Order of the Black Eagle since they apparently wanted his head. Then Daniel just waltzes into the scene, one-mans his way through the most horrific castle in existence, and brings down Alexander mere seconds before he pulls off his epic karma houdini.

And yes, I do think that, despite Philip's journey being far more dangerous, Daniel's is overall more epic because Brennenburg was better for inflicting mental trauma, which is where it hurts the most. Not once in Penumbra did I ever feel the complete fucking psychological dread as when Daniel saw all those dead bodies in the Morgue, or when he rediscovers the depraved torture rooms of his past. Penumbra has a more...remorse tone that leaves the player with a feeling of catharsis, but since this is a question of "epicness", Amnesia, in my opinion, is the better of the two.

[cantremember]

IMO Phillip endured the more scary parts. Daniel could in most instances just hide when he heard a monster.

Phillip had to deal with giant spiders (and get in direct conflict with them). Some tuurngait also inevitably going straight after Phillip (like when you have to lure one into the server room or the one at the end).

Also when Daniel was captured he knew they would let him sit there and wait for the Shadow to take him.
When Phillip got knocked out and captured, he had no idea when they would come, or what kind of sick experiments they would do on him

Daniel also had safe level hubs, Phillips had Tuurngait roaming the level hub (which was also more maze-ish than Daniel's hubs). Also the idea of being in rooms where through notes and wood carvings you know that the previous occupants have died horrific deaths at the hands of the creatures that lurk there, that's kinda scary. In Amnesia the previous occupants just died at your own or Alexander's hands.

[Warp]

I would say that Daniel goes through the greater Journey. For starter's, Phillip has no real purpose to be in greenland, apart from his own curiosity, while Daniel had a set purpose going to brenenburg. I feel Phillip isn't as connected to the world as Daniel.

Daniel has to go through finding out he's a murderer, and has been an evil man. Phillip isn't tortured emotionally like this. Sure, he accidently kills Amabel, but he's able to blame it on Clarance.

I feel things like the glowstick also make things easier for Phillip. Even if his torch run's out, he still has his trusty glowstick to fall back on. Daniel, on the other hand, is in serious trouble if his lantern runs out.

While phillip's imidiate threads were more Dangerous then Daniels (The spiders were real bastards), you have to remember that Daniel has the shadow to deal with, and if he move's to slowly, the shadow will kill him.

I would also argue that Brenenburg is the scarier place. Sure, there is horrible monsters around, and dark cave, I can't recall anything truly horrifying, such as the morgue. Maybe it's just me, but I found the computers and the modern enviroment reasurring.

I will say that Phillip's ending was more important for humanity as a whole, and I thoroughly enjoyed it, I wish it had a final confrontation with your enemy, like in Amnesia.

I loved Penumbra, don't get me wrong, but I feel that amnesia was the scarier and more epic of the games.

[failedALIAS]

With Amnesia, it's the personal journey through madness and despair. With Penumbra it's you carrying humanities philosophy on your shoulders, while you struggle to maintain.

[Zaffre]

Here are my views.

Daniel of Amnesia woke up, trapped in a castle, knowing nothing, and having no way out. Not only was he trapped inside, he didn't know what it was. Not to mention he has nyctophobia. Nyctophobia is an intense fear of the dark. He'd be terrified without the lantern, so he keeps it on. If his lantern runs out of oil, he's trapped in the dark. The creatures he encountered are horrific, and as he discovers his past, he finds out he's a murderer and about the people he's inflicted so much pain on.

Philip of Penumbra received a letter from his father whom he had believed to be dead for all his life. In the letter was the information to a bank account in Mayfair, where he found documents. His father instructed him to burn the documents, but his curiosity got the better of him, and he found himself in an abandoned mine shaft before long. He descends into the mine, encountering giant worms, giant spiders, and undead hounds who hunger for his flesh. He makes a companion, Red, and has to incinerate him in a room and is forced to hear his screams and pleas for Philip to turn the machine off but he can't. He descends farther down, and discovers that the Tuurngait, an ancient, sentient virus, has been disturbed from its slumber and infected an entire facility. He is told by the Tuurngait to contact a friend with the events that transpired, and tell them to keep it secret, and then kill himself. He sends the location of the mine to a friend. His final words are "Kill them. Kill them all."

I think that Daniel wins on psychological stress. Philip wins on danger encountered. They both go through enough for a lifetime and the ending in both games leaves the character scarred forever, as a reminder of Daniel's dark past and Philip's sacrifices and helplessness.

[Robby]

Here are my views.

Daniel of Amnesia woke up, trapped in a castle, knowing nothing, and having no way out. Not only was he trapped inside, he didn't know what it was. Not to mention he has nyctophobia. Nyctophobia is an intense fear of the dark. He'd be terrified without the lantern, so he keeps it on. If his lantern runs out of oil, he's trapped in the dark. The creatures he encountered are horrific, and as he discovers his past, he finds out he's a murderer and about the people he's inflicted so much pain on.

Philip of Penumbra received a letter from his father whom he had believed to be dead for all his life. In the letter was the information to a bank account in Mayfair, where he found documents. His father instructed him to burn the documents, but his curiosity got the better of him, and he found himself in an abandoned mine shaft before long. He descends into the mine, encountering giant worms, giant spiders, and undead hounds who hunger for his flesh. He makes a companion, Red, and has to incinerate him in a room and is forced to hear his screams and pleas for Philip to turn the machine off but he can't. He descends farther down, and discovers that the Tuurngait, an ancient, sentient virus, has been disturbed from its slumber and infected an entire facility. He is told by the Tuurngait to contact a friend with the events that transpired, and tell them to keep it secret, and then kill himself. He sends the location of the mine to a friend. His final words are "Kill them. Kill them all."

I think that Daniel wins on psychological stress. Philip wins on danger encountered. They both go through enough for a lifetime and the ending in both games leaves the character scarred forever, as a reminder of Daniel's dark past and Philip's sacrifices and helplessness.

^ This.

[Gaviao]

but daniel killed innocent people too,in a moment in the campaign, he remember of a man that was going to be killed because he burned a person alive,but the man says that he is innocent that he never did that, but alexander still forces daniel to kill him with cold blood... you guys are forgetting some moments in amnesia that is a lot worst than the moments with philip, but whatever, the ending of both of them is still the same, because they have to deal with the innocent ppl that they killed for nothing...