[SPOILER] Plot Discussion Thread *Spoiler Alert*

[Cybolic]

[...]Problem is that:

"June 24th 1899
(...)

I hear my children playing in the attic but it fills me with terror, not love. What desperate thoughts are these?"

The kids seems to be alive before the time of the previous note I quoted. Oh well. Anyway, I still guess the kids were reanimated somehow.

Mandus being terrified of his 'children' in the attic probably means that he's disturbed by them being zombified shells of their former selves. I don't know - personally, I thought the Man-Pigs (and the Machine) served as surrogate children...

I don't think the children were ever reanimated; we are only shown the children as ghosts/hallucinations, so must assume that this is what Mandus is referring to.

My interpretation is that they were killed in Mexico, either on purpose or by falling rocks. "and then I went into the garden and buried those tiny shattered skulls under the weeping bulges of the rhododendrons" - why else are they shattered?

I'm tempted to believe that their deaths were an accident and that the entire London Aztec pyramid, the jaguar-faced mask and the sacrificing of the children's hearts are only the fabrications of Mandus' dying mind, blaming himself for not keeping them safe and ending up mixing mythology into it.

---

One thing I haven't seen touched much is the sexuality of Mandus.
I got the impression that Lillibeth didn't/couldn't quite satisfy him, hence the spying on her in the bath and the drawings, but I wonder if there's a connection to Jack the Ripper here? Mandus seems most aroused, not when mentioning Lillibeth, but when talking to himself in the mirror about his "honest evil". Mandus probably wasn't The Ripper, but he might have found the killings arousing and possibly done a few himself (if "mouth is full of the sulphur mustards", means a grin of death and "thus I wash my hands and take to bed" is washing them clean of blood).
I'm not sure what the precise meaning is here, but I'm sure there's something.

As for what we've been playing, I'm leaning towards the game taking place in Mandus' mind and the pigmen, the destruction of London, the experiments with the Brennenburg compound and the scope of the machine all being representative of other things; with the exception of the Brennenburg compound and the Orb which I believe are mixed memories from what he knows of his uncle.

[Cybolic]

For what it's worth, I've tried to assemble most of the references that've been found so far on the Wikipedia page for AAMFP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesia:_A..._Pigs#Plot

[Daemian]

I don't think the kids died in Mexico, the dates makes sense only if they were killed at the underground temple. Mandus sacrificed them in a ritual and ate their hearts.

[Cybolic]

I don't think the kids died in Mexico, the dates makes sense only if they were killed at the underground temple. Mandus sacrificed them in a ritual and ate their hearts.

I don't know... the Mexico expedition is often referred to as a tragedy and no-one mentions the children. The only evidence there is that the children are alive after that, are their two diary entries in October, which is found while Mandus still believes they are trapped somewhere in the machine so could be his imagination.

For example Father Jeremiah's Journal, October 1st 1899: "A changed man since Mexico. It is to be praised that in the face of such appalling tragedy, and from the confines of his sickbed, as he is often chained to, he conducts one of the greatest and most benevolent charities in all of London.".

If they are alive after Mexico, which tragedy are people referring to (it can't be the loss of his wife, that's many years previous and his illness is hardly a tragedy) and when does he then actually kill them?

I think it's possible - though I'm not sure I like that interpretation - that they died in Mexico; Mandus returned with high fever, eventually believing himself to have build his slaughterhouse into the Machine and sacrificed his children and that the whole game takes place in this fever fantasy.

The more I think about it, this explanation seems to make the most sense :/

[Kotch]

[/quote]
If they are alive after Mexico, which tragedy are people referring to (it can't be the loss of his wife; that's many years previous) and when does he then actually kill them?
[/quote]

Is it possible that the "tragedy" was the egg showing him the future? That makes the most sense to me.

[Alardem]

Is it possible that the "tragedy" was the egg showing him the future? That makes the most sense to me.

Since his vision of his sons' death involved them dying as adults in war and the children end up getting their hearts pulled out...I'd say he killed them then and there.

Earlier in this thread, someone speculated that the native guides escorting Mandus may have been killed by him while he was undergoing his vision. After all, they would have been witnesses...

[Alex Ros]

I have always thought that Shadow attacks people who are trying to obtain the Orb, that the Guardian punishes the very desire to have this cosmic thing for myself alone. That's what happened with Daniel when he took the Orb away.

As long as there's a hidden underground temple in a Machine for Pigs I presume Mandus wasn't hunted by the Shadow simply because he haven't took the Orb, he was influenced by its powers and has built entire machine around the temple, but the Orb itself was always untouched down there at the mysterious London temple.

Another possibility and preferable one is that Mandus did take the Orb with him away from Mexico. But instead of trying to hide from the Shadow he has built a twin temple just underground the London and let Shadow guard it downthere. Somehow the Shadow became satisfied but began to heavily influence poor Mandus whose mental state was heavily shaken by the death of the beloved wife, who died at the birth of the twins. He, Mandus, began to think that the world itself and a human civilization is a monster. And killed his children to save them from the horrors of the world. At the same time he did not just killed them, he sacrificed them and used their hearts to obtain the Orb powers in order to build his Machine. And that Machine was able to merge pigs and humans only because of the Orb powers, because of the special vitae version. And the whole purpose of the Machine is creating of the "army" of monsters capable of destroying whole mankind, unworthy of this planet.

Well, anyway, all those words above are just presumptions, nothing more.

The only thing that I am sure about (for myself of course) is that the temple under the London wasn't there, nope, it has been built by the Mandus. The twin of the mexican temple. That's something I am sure about. But that what I feel, I do not insist I am right and I do not have any exact arguments that I am right.

[Alardem]

I think the Stone Egg just doesn't have a guardian over-zealously protecting it. Rather, whatever was inside it was manipulating Mandus for its own agenda.

I didn't really like the Shadow in execution anyway. Doom 3 pulled off the 'flesh overtaking metal' aesthetic in both appearance and sound far better, and for an omnipresent guardian it sure took its sweet time with Daniel.

[Cybolic]

The only thing that I am sure about (for myself of course) is that the temple under the London wasn't there, nope, it has been built by the Mandus. The twin of the mexican temple. That's something I am sure about. But that what I feel, I do not insist I am right and I do not have any exact arguments that I am right.

Do you mean that it was already there or that it was never there?

I see three options:

1. It was already there. This could be supported by "What ungodly temple is this? Beneath the vast boiler, that barnacle bruise, that cacophony, that barely-contained, that swollen heart of hate, what is this stillness, this silence, this palpable air of death I have found." (December 15th 1899). This could also just be him remembering or discovering the place again though. The idea that a twin temple just happens to be right under his factory is a bit too convenient for my taste in general.
   
2. Mandus built it. The scale of it and the time frame he had to do it in (February till November at the most) just seems preposterous. I don't buy it.
   
3. It was never real. I see no issues with this explanation. It fits with the exaggerated scale of the place and the unlikeliness of the two first options lead me to pick this as most likely correct.
   

As for when the children died, these two voice bits might support the Mexico theory:
"And, emerging, I raised my head to an uncaring sun and I cursed this world of pain and despair." and shortly after "Cradling a stone egg in my jacket, I kissed my children farewell and I crawled my way home.", though this comes rather late in the game, it is after Mandus has accepted the truth of things, lending to the idea that he now remembers leaving the children (or their life) behind in Mexico.

As for how they died, I mentioned previously the shattered skulls, but here might be why they are shattered: "He placed his head in the vice and spun the wheel until the skull cracked and the thoughts leaked onto his shoes. It relieved the pressure for a while, but it soon returned.".
Could it be that this isn't symbolism, but the killing of the first boy?
Also, are these his children he is carrying to the top of the pyramid? "The stairs are steep, the sun beating on his neck as he pulls them up. Veins pop on his forearms, but he cannot deviate, he is a man driven by love, only love."

As for the Orb, it's never explicitly mentioned that Mandus had one and the shadow is never mentioned either, so I wouldn't put much weight on TDD's lore in regards to AMFP.

I think we need a proper wiki to put the timeline and all the theories, pros and cons on.

[TexDangerfield]

I have always thought that Shadow attacks people who are trying to obtain the Orb, that the Guardian punishes the very desire to have this cosmic thing for myself alone. That's what happened with Daniel when he took the Orb away.

As long as there's a hidden underground temple in a Machine for Pigs I presume Mandus wasn't hunted by the Shadow simply because he haven't took the Orb, he was influenced by its powers and has built entire machine around the temple, but the Orb itself was always untouched down there at the mysterious London temple.

Another possibility and preferable one is that Mandus did take the Orb with him away from Mexico. But instead of trying to hide from the Shadow he has built a twin temple just underground the London and let Shadow guard it downthere. Somehow the Shadow became satisfied but began to heavily influence poor Mandus whose mental state was heavily shaken by the death of the beloved wife, who died at the birth of the twins. He, Mandus, began to think that the world itself and a human civilization is a monster. And killed his children to save them from the horrors of the world. At the same time he did not just killed them, he sacrificed them and used their hearts to obtain the Orb powers in order to build his Machine. And that Machine was able to merge pigs and humans only because of the Orb powers, because of the special vitae version. And the whole purpose of the Machine is creating of the "army" of monsters capable of destroying whole mankind, unworthy of this planet.

Well, anyway, all those words above are just presumptions, nothing more.

The only thing that I am sure about (for myself of course) is that the temple under the London wasn't there, nope, it has been built by the Mandus. The twin of the mexican temple. That's something I am sure about. But that what I feel, I do not insist I am right and I do not have any exact arguments that I am right.

I'm under the impression The Shadow just sort of does what it wants. It felt more beneficial for it to simply influence Mandus, I have the feeling that truly it would never have really hunted and killed Daniel until after his contact with Alexander and all the evil they had done. After all Daniel was manipulated as well into doing evil things.