A Few Questions About the Manpigs

[ThatCrazyShaman]

- Adding in a couple more things I thought of, as well as condensing this a bit, to keep things neat -

[Leaving this in for the hell of it lol] Do the Manpigs kill Mandus, or just knock him out?

Spoiler below!

This has been a question I've had ever since playing TDD, but I've never seen anyone bring it up anywhere, so I figured I'd do it, as I have the same question about AMFP.

In TDD, you'll notice that once a monster has dispatched Daniel [with the exception of the Kaernk, I believe?], he respawns a bit further back from where he was, usually in a moderately safer area. For instance, in the prison he respawns in that one room where the Grunt will spawn when the door is opened, and he hears Alexander questioning the Grunt, presumably, as to where Daniel is and if he's safe.

That was what got me to originally thinking that perhaps Alexander had told his servants to just knock Daniel out and move him to a safe area, in the hopes that he'd come to his senses and turn back.

Additionally, there's the fact that the Grunts could have just easily killed Daniel in the Chancel when they gang up on him, but after knocking him out, one of them locks him up in the cell area.

Quite obviously, Alexander doesn't want Daniel dead, whether it's to keep the Shadow from just coming after him, or because he genuinely likes Daniel [which he does seem to - he continues to call him his friend long after Daniel's made it clear that he wants to murder him].

Is the same true for AMFP, though? I don't know for sure as I haven't had the time to screw around with it just yet, and when I played I only died a few times.

I had read that there are at least a couple of instances involving the Wretch in which it sounded like they just knocked Mandus out and then moved him somewhere out of the way, as in TDD. The one time I allowed a Wretch to "kill" Mandus in the piston room, he respawned in a remote corner. I think I've also seen where he respawns behind some boxes around there.

I suppose it could be that the Wretches actually care about him to some extent [which would be a tad weird, considering]. After all, they do attack him rather half-heartedly [they take a while to do the total amount of damage needed to K.O. him - although that could just be because they're physically weak - and they pause between hits, as though they're purposly giving him the opportunity to run].

They also could have just killed him in the mansion, instead of running away all the time, This is part of the reason why I think that the Wretches [at least some of them] don't want Mandus to restart the machine [because they seem to try to drive him off while he endeavors to do so, but, with the exception of the one that gets electrocuted, they don't seem to be around all that much after he succeeds. Rather, he has to worry about Engineers and Teslas at that point, as he decides to disable it once again].

The Engineers and Teslas, on the other hand, don't really have a reason to be all that endeared to him, so they'd be far more likely to just flat out murder him. In the case of Teslas, they just seem to murder whatever crosses their path.

Thoughts?

Do Manpigs have pig or human brains?

Spoiler below!

I can see where this could go either way, although I’d have to think they have human brains. Namely because, while pigs are quite intelligent, I highly doubt you could ever teach a pig how to write or operate machinery [or drive a truck, for that matter]. Their ability to learn is less driven by complex reasoning and more by cues.

Mandus’ comment about humans being ‘rotten with sentimentality’, and allusions to forcing the hand of evolution, would seem to support the idea of them potentially retaining the pig brain, but, again, pigs aren’t quite that smart. And changing something’s body structure isn’t going to cause its brain capacity to evolve over night, either.

Not to mention, would you really lobotomize a pig for any reason, let alone so they don’t completely freak out when they see themselves in the mirror?

Yes, all mammals share the same set of emotions, but in non-ape species they seem to be less complex in that department. I grew up spending a lot of time around farm animals, and I can say that their emotions are a bit more straightforward, more black-and-white, than human emotions. I don’t really see why you would need to lobotomize them if they had pig brains – it’s not like it made them any less emotional, regardless.

If they did have human brains, this could, in theory, explain a little bit of their general behavior. Lobotomies were notorious for changing the personality of whomever they were performed on, and one of the known effects was that it could greatly diminish mental capacity. Another potential side effect [which they may or may not have been aware of in 1899] was that the patient would sometimes become fairly aggressive – and in a couple of cases, they actually sought-out and attacked the practitioner who lobotomized them.

Do the Manpigs have some method of communicating with Mandus, aside from writing? As in – and I use this term loosely here – some form of speaking?

Spoiler below!

This has bugged me every time I go back through the game. I know it sounds completely ridiculous, but the vague nature of the story’s timeline makes me question it, due to the loading screen mentioning the foreman. Also, the whole thing about them singing, although I suppose that really comes down to what one considers to be singing.

I figure that Mandus probably would have kept around at least a few members of his human workforce until close to when the game takes place [since I find the idea of orphans working alongside of Manpigs to be a little… bizarre]. The dates on the notes place the creation of the Manpigs before he mentions the orphan portion of the workforce at all, though, so they did in fact exist in that timeframe, at least.

It just gets me to questioning how Mandus would communicate with them, if at all [as working with individuals who have the ability to clearly communicate ideas is far easier, especially in an establishment in which any number of things could go horribly wrong].

If we assume that Manpigs have human brains, we could also assume that perhaps some of them were subject to having their pig vocal cords replaced with those of a human [although their squealing would clearly suggest otherwise]. That, or Mandus can interpret pig-speak.
It makes more sense to think that the Machine tells him anything important, and his interactions with the Manpigs are limited to him giving them orders and whatnot. Just thought I’d throw the question out there, though.

[Alardem]

There's a theory going around that Mandus is technically invincible due to being imbued with the same Compound that revives the Pig-Men - this is supported by the Iron Lung at the end being filled with the liquid, by having Mandus talk about 'blue water running' in his veins, and by the text talking about the chemical allowing for dogs and severed heads to revive (Agrippa reference?) If this is the case, then it could be that he simply can't die - the Machine is doing its best to delay him, not murder him.

Also, if we consider that the Machine is linked to Mandus and the latter's heart is powering it, then it'd be in the Machine's best interests to keep Mandus alive. The ending in which Mandus approaches his heart and electrocutes it depicts the moment in which he finally is capable of dying.

[Potato]

It seems like they do the latter, with the exception being the Tesla. If you actually die during the first pig encounter, you'll respawn in a closed cage, as you hear the manpig walking away.

[ThatCrazyShaman]

There's a theory going around that Mandus is technically invincible due to being imbued with the same Compound that revives the Pig-Men - this is supported by the Iron Lung at the end being filled with the liquid, by having Mandus talk about 'blue water running' in his veins, and by the text talking about the chemical allowing for dogs and severed heads to revive (Agrippa reference?) If this is the case, then it could be that he simply can't die - the Machine is doing its best to delay him, not murder him.

Also, if we consider that the Machine is linked to Mandus and the latter's heart is powering it, then it'd be in the Machine's best interests to keep Mandus alive. The ending in which Mandus approaches his heart and electrocutes it depicts the moment in which he finally is capable of dying.

Ah, that's an interesting theory! My one question would be, though, why, in that case, does the Engineer start shouting 'kill him' near the end? Granted, he could just be saying that, knowing that it won't happen. Additionally, Mandus seemed to be quite concerned about being scalded alive when he was traveling through the steam pipes - which could just be because being scalded wouldn't be fun, even if you are biologically immortal xD.

Going slightly off-topic momentarily, I personally always got an Invasion of the Body Snatchers vibe from some of the information put forth in the game about how the Engineer comes about. It occured to me at one point, also, that perhaps that half of Mandus' soul was present within him until he could obtain a corporeal form for it, which could suggest a connection between Mandus saying he skinned the professor [I have seen people say that the body in the iron lung looks as though it's been skinned] and 'the skinless one is waking' from Justine.
On the other hand, 'the skinless one is waking' could also just be a reference to the machine itself; metaphors can be pretty poetic in nature.

Meh, I'm just rambling. I haven't been lurking around the forum much since back just before the game came out, so I don't really know all what people have theorized xD

[Alardem]

The largest problem with the 'Mandus revived by Compound' theory is that he himself doesn't make electrical sources flicker, whereas the Pigs do. Then again, he DOES teleport a couple of times in the laboratory and in the Tesla Tower, which is behavior similar to the water-monsters and Tesla-Pigs.

Also, I suppose one can interpret the body in the Iron Lung to be the Professor's - which would explain why the Machine sounds like him. The issue would be wondering why the Professor was so important to Mandus' scheme.

Speaking of Justine, there are hints that her father - driven insane by the Star Stone - was the one who created the elaborate torture dungeon beneath the Florbelle mansion. It could be that he had been attempting to create a Machine just like Mandus had. "Luckily", his daughter stopped his progress and was content to use his dungeon for the more idle purpose of torturing her lovers.

[ThatCrazyShaman]

The largest problem with the 'Mandus revived by Compound' theory is that he himself doesn't make electrical sources flicker, whereas the Pigs do. Then again, he DOES teleport a couple of times in the laboratory and in the Tesla Tower, which is behavior similar to the water-monsters and Tesla-Pigs.

Also, I suppose one can interpret the body in the Iron Lung to be the Professor's - which would explain why the Machine sounds like him. The issue would be wondering why the Professor was so important to Mandus' scheme.

Speaking of Justine, there are hints that her father - driven insane by the Star Stone - was the one who created the elaborate torture dungeon beneath the Florbelle mansion. It could be that he had been attempting to create a Machine just like Mandus had. "Luckily", his daughter stopped his progress and was content to use his dungeon for the more idle purpose of torturing her lovers.

One thing about the immortaility idea is that I don't know if I'd say for certain that the ~ actually has that specific side effect. The Manpigs do seem to have the ability to die, judging from the one that's half buried in the churchyard, as well as the one that gets owned by the Tesla. They might be biologically immortal, but I don't know if I'd go as far to say permanently immortal.
There could be another explanation for the teleporting thing - I just have no idea what xD.
Honestly, the first time it happened when I played the game, I figured either the otherworldly presence from the stone egg was doing it, since doors like to disappear/lock/unlock themselves [although why couldn't it just do that all the time, then? Just blew a hole in that theory lol], or the Tesla itself has some sort of effect on other creatures in close proximity to it - assuming it didn't bash their skulls in immediately before it could happen, that is. Of course, the other party would have to have no idea at all that it was right next to them, essentially.
I suppose it could also be a phenomenon connected to the particular environment itself, though I'm not quite sure how that would work... Really, this whole thing makes me think of photons [since they have the ability to disappear and reappear elsewhere]. There's some Quantum Leap-esque stuff going on here.
On a further side note, one thing that bugged me a bit with the 'Oswald is a Manpig' theory was that people attempted to use that scene near the end with the Wretch standing with the twins as an example, but I'm nearly 100% certain that the scene was meant to be a reference to the whole thing with him having regarded his creations as his replacement children.
It's also possible there's a Wretch physically standing there watching him, as once the twins vanish, he's still there.
True, true. Could have just been a matter of preference, really. Sure, he hates all these [well-to-do?] scumbags, but he probably can tolerate some, at least slightly, more than others. It would be interesting to explore that idea for some deeper meaning, if there was anything to really explore. It brings to mind that philosophy about people hating those that remind them of themselves, but having a subconcious affection for them.
You know, that never even crossed my mind. It would certainly make sense, if we assume that her father had a similar idea to Mandus', just on a smaller scale. It gives me the sense of a distinct 'technology will be the death of us all' theme.
Makes me wonder if FG will ever be involved with a project that has a full-on Isaac Asimov-type of story [Amnesia: I, Robot lol]

[Alardem]

Regarding 'immortality' - there is one point in which Mandus is able to electrocute a Pig, although I'm not actually sure if it was killed or simply immobilized. Either way, it is possible that immortality does not necessarily lead to superhuman strength - we know that Agrippa was trapped inside a rotting husk for centuries. And come to think of it, one of Mandus' notes indicates that a dog he'd poisoned and then revived with the Chemical continued to be suffering from the poison and had to be put out of its misery. I suppose that could mean Mandus is still very ill following his immersion in the Chemical, justifying why he can't fight back and why he keeps having black outs.

Personally, I like to imagine that Frictional's games all take place in the same 'universe'. Amnesia is historical horror (concluded by heralding the 20th century), Penumbra is in the present day, and SOMA is a futuristic exploration of artificial intelligence and alien life.

[ThatCrazyShaman]

Regarding 'immortality' - there is one point in which Mandus is able to electrocute a Pig, although I'm not actually sure if it was killed or simply immobilized. Either way, it is possible that immortality does not necessarily lead to superhuman strength - we know that Agrippa was trapped inside a rotting husk for centuries. And come to think of it, one of Mandus' notes indicates that a dog he'd poisoned and then revived with the Chemical continued to be suffering from the poison and had to be put out of its misery. I suppose that could mean Mandus is still very ill following his immersion in the Chemical, justifying why he can't fight back and why he keeps having black outs.

Personally, I like to imagine that Frictional's games all take place in the same 'universe'. Amnesia is historical horror (concluded by heralding the 20th century), Penumbra is in the present day, and SOMA is a futuristic exploration of artificial intelligence and alien life.

I don’t know; the Wretch looks pretty dead to me, although it’s bobbing motion in the water almost gives it an appearance of still breathing [that is, assuming that Manpigs have a breathing animation – I’ve never noticed whether they do or not]… Then again, if we consider that they individuals they were made from were probably drowned and the water in their lungs replaced with Compound X, what are the odds that they have a need to breathe, anyway? xD

Agreed. Though, it would be interesting to see FG do something during the period of time between 1900-1970 [aside from the bit of background it provided in Penumbra: Overture]. But I think the Cthulhu Mythos has that pretty well-covered… And Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth, of course.

At any rate, thank you for sticking around to discuss all this, Alardem. I actually have a couple of other questions on my mind you might be able to shed some light on for me, as I haven’t really seen them come up anywhere.

For one, do Manpigs have pig or human brains?

I can see where this could go either way, although I’d have to think they have human brains. Namely because, while pigs are quite intelligent, I highly doubt you could ever teach a pig how to write or operate machinery [or drive a truck, for that matter]. Their ability to learn is less driven by complex reasoning and more by cues.

Mandus’ comment about humans being ‘rotten with sentimentality’, and allusions to forcing the hand of evolution, would seem to support the idea of them potentially retaining the pig brain, but, again, pigs aren’t quite that smart. And changing something’s body structure isn’t going to cause its brain capacity to evolve over night, either.

Not to mention, would you really lobotomize a pig for any reason, let alone so they don’t completely freak out when they see themselves in the mirror?

Yes, all mammals share the same set of emotions, but in non-ape species they seem to be less complex in that department. I grew up spending a lot of time around farm animals, and I can say that their emotions are a bit more straightforward, more black-and-white, than human emotions. I don’t really see why you would need to lobotomize them if they had pig brains – it’s not like it made them any less emotional, regardless.
If they did have human brains, this could, in theory, explain a little bit of their general behavior. Lobotomies were notorious for changing the personality of whomever they were performed on, and one of the known effects was that it could greatly diminish mental capacity. Another potential side effect [which they may or may not have been aware of in 1899] was that the patient would sometimes become fairly aggressive – and in a couple of cases, they actually sought-out and attacked the practitioner who lobotomized them.

My other question is, do the Manpigs have some method of communicating with Mandus, aside from writing? As in – and I use this term loosely here – some form of speaking?

This has bugged me every time I go back through the game. I know it sounds completely ridiculous, but the vague nature of the story’s timeline makes me question it, due to the loading screen mentioning the foreman. Also, the whole thing about them singing, although I suppose that really comes down to what one considers to be singing.

I figure that Mandus probably would have kept around at least a few members of his human workforce until close to when the game takes place [since I find the idea of orphans working alongside of Manpigs to be a little… bizarre]. The dates on the notes place the creation of the Manpigs before he mentions the orphan portion of the workforce at all, though, so they did in fact exist in that timeframe, at least.

It just gets me to questioning how Mandus would communicate with them, if at all [as working with individuals who have the ability to clearly communicate ideas is far easier, especially in an establishment in which any number of things could go horribly wrong].

If we assume that Manpigs have human brains, we could also assume that perhaps some of them were subject to having their pig vocal cords replaced with those of a human [although their squealing would clearly suggest otherwise]. That, or Mandus can interpret pig-speak.
It makes more sense to think that the Machine tells him anything important, and his interactions with the Manpigs are limited to him giving them orders and whatnot. Just thought I’d throw the question out there, though.

[Alardem]

It's implied that most of the Pigs are mental patients, homeless people, and "recrafted" house-servants. There is a sign inside the Nest of Wretches which tells them not to "fraternize" (rut), which indicates that they're intelligent enough to read. Hell, one of the Pigs is even seen writing inside his cell. It's possible that the driving Pig also left the 'driver's note' on his truck, although the grammar is much better than that of the man who writes a note describing his transformation inside the laboratory.

I'm curious as to how much free will they have, and what motivates their aggression. They were clearly obeying the Machine when arising to kill, rape and capture the citizens of London, but did they also attack Mandus out of recognition? I'm also wondering if there's a reason for the 'hierarchy' between the Engineers and Wretches. For example, you see a larger Engineer push aside a cowering Wretch in the Nest - proof that Mandus' plan to change human nature (or the ridiculously strict class system) is a failure. It also appears that the Tesla is just indiscriminately hostile to other beings, resulting in it killing an unfortunate Wretch.

If I recall correctly, Mandus never says that he transformed his orphan children - only used them to clean the Machine's insides, and then fed them to the Pigs. I also believe that he didn't transform his rich guests, but instead turned them into meat to fatten the Pigs and future victims.

[PutraenusAlivius]

Quite obviously, Alexander doesn't want Daniel dead, whether it's to keep the Shadow from just coming after him, or because he genuinely likes Daniel.

Moar Daniel-Alexander fanfics!!1!