*Spoilers* The Torture Victims

**superluser** · 10-06-2010, 04:55 PM

(10-06-2010, 03:56 PM)mansarde Wrote: Daniel "might" not have tortured that many people, but Alexander has AT LEAST tortured that many people, since he needed them to stay alive for centuries.

Actually, I was on about one of my pet peeves here, which is that the game strongly implies that Alexander has been abducting and murdering hundreds of people over the past few years alone, and no one seems to have noticed.

**hollowleviathan** · 10-06-2010, 08:02 PM

(10-06-2010, 04:55 PM)superluser Wrote: Actually, I was on about one of my pet peeves here, which is that the game strongly implies that Alexander has been abducting and murdering hundreds of people over the past few years alone, and no one seems to have noticed.

People have noticed! Not only do they know for a fact about The Gatherers snatching anyone and everyone they come across in the forests, that is, the gruesome monsters populating the halls, but the local Watch has been hunting and killing them, and Alexander sees visions of pitchforks and torches, and executes his remaining human servants, possibly soon after Daniel arrives, realizing that this new orb is the solution to all his problems.

**tonewww** · 10-06-2010, 08:49 PM

I myself wondered how many daniel killed but who knows? it could be 100 or it could be 100,000! its just a bit of a loose thread i guess as we already know alexander tortured milliions probably

**superluser** · 10-07-2010, 03:56 PM

(10-06-2010, 08:49 PM)tonewww Wrote: I myself wondered how many daniel killed but who knows? it could be 100 or it could be 100,000! its just a bit of a loose thread i guess as we already know alexander tortured milliions probably

One million deaths in 400 years (about the time from the birth of the real Agrippa to the time of the game) is one death every three hours.

The number of deaths would be truly jarring. Even 10,000 deaths in 400 years would be astounding. That would be an extra 25 deaths per year, and in a province of Prussia on the Baltic Sea (I was wrong about my estimation of Brennenberg in Saxony before), that would increase the murder rate for the entire province by 2 per 100,000. That surplus would effectively double the murder rate in the region, assuming it had the murder rate of central Europe now.

Remember, Jack the Ripper only killed 5 people and he set off a media panic. 25 people per year for 400 years would have widespread efforts to track down where the missing people were going, and eventually, some patterns would emerge. If the locals weren't interested in solving the problem, you'd get outsiders trying to figure it out. And if the outsiders went missing, then you'd probably get the army, who would tear the province apart trying to find the kidnappers.

**mansarde** · 10-07-2010, 06:06 PM

One thing Alexander said was:

Quote:One of my responsibilities as a baron is that of a prison warden. This is where criminals are locked up.

So maybe he was able somehow to declare many people as guilty of something, perhaps with a little help of the Black Eagle?
It was said that he...

Quote:...joined the coveted order of the Black Eagle along with the great leaders of this country.

Well, the fact is that he is one of the founding fathers, but if there are powerful people in the order, then I guess he had some power to get "prisoners" more easily.
And then there apparently were some noble (as in powerful) people (at least Wilhelm, house of Gerich) who desperately wanted to joing the Black Eagle and did anything for Alexander to get in.

**superluser** · 10-08-2010, 04:51 AM

(10-07-2010, 06:06 PM)mansarde Wrote: So maybe he was able somehow to declare many people as guilty of something, perhaps with a little help of the Black Eagle?

That puts him in the same situation. People ask too many questions if you have that many more capital offenses in your province. On the other hand, he could offer to accept prisoners from other provinces to execute there. That's not very believable, but it is plausible. The Reindel family did supposedly carry out all executions in Prussia during the time in question, so simply substituting Alexander for Reindel would carry you most of the way there (note that I don't have any reason to suspect that only one Reindel did all the executions or that they were al shipped to his home, so you'll still have to do some heavy lifting for that).

**VirtualAlex** · 10-08-2010, 05:39 AM

Who says they need to be capital offenses? They could simply be executing everyone in the prison for whatever reason. They could always claim that whoever it was died in prison from various reasons. I mean it's not like a prison board went around to makes sure prisons are up to code, or keeping track of on-site deaths and comparing them to other provinces.

Also, I don't know how to access all the journal files, but could someone check the "scope" of the game? What is the date of Daniels first kill compared to the date of him drinking the amnesia potion? How much time passes from his arrival to the end?

**superluser** · 10-08-2010, 07:07 AM

(10-08-2010, 05:39 AM)VirtualAlex Wrote: Who says they need to be capital offenses? They could simply be executing everyone in the prison for whatever reason. They could always claim that whoever it was died in prison from various reasons. I mean it's not like a prison board went around to makes sure prisons are up to code, or keeping track of on-site deaths and comparing them to other provinces.

Yes and no.

They might not have official death/kidnapping statistics, but if they heard of a new kidnapping every other week, then they'd probably send somebody out to check, if only to make sure that Alexander was getting *all* of them, and that there was no chance that the crime ring might be large enough to operate in their lands, too.

On the other hand, if these murders are on the books and if, for example, the prison death rate for jaywalkers skyrockets, there might be some questions raised as to why so many people didn't return from what were supposed to be short sentences. At the same time, capital prisoners had to appear in public for their executions, so a pattern of mistreatment would probably earn the Baron a reputation, though probably not enough to send people by to investigate.

I still think the baron offering to kill prisoners from other lands is more plausible than either of those possibilities.

(10-08-2010, 05:39 AM)VirtualAlex Wrote: Also, I don't know how to access all the journal files, but could someone check the "scope" of the game? What is the date of Daniels first kill compared to the date of him drinking the amnesia potion? How much time passes from his arrival to the end?

1839-05-16 Daniel begins the dig
1839-05-17 Daniel finds the orb
1839-07-14 Daniel gets letter from Alexander
1839-08-03 Daniel arrives at Brennenberg
1839-08-09 Daniel performs first warding ritual
1839-08-19 I wish I could ask how much you remember

**VirtualAlex** · 10-08-2010, 01:03 PM

So Daniel is only at Brennenberg for 16 days. Hardly enough time to kill hundreds. I feel like this is hardly enough time to even get used to torturing and murdering people. Daniel seems like a pretty bad person.

**hollowleviathan** · 10-08-2010, 07:27 PM

It's easy to say from your sofa that I would never do that, I can't believe anyone could be so blind. It's another to be pursued across two continents by an unerring killer of unearthly origins, and how wrong is it to kill criminals who were sentences to death anyway?

People even without supernaturally augmented charisma have led people to do worse things. People who weren't suffering mental anguish and creeping madness have been convinced of more obvious embellishments and lies.