(04-06-2012, 01:56 AM)Putmalk Wrote: By the way, you guys can post videos in this thread for critique. It is an open discussion on design.
So, here goes. New custom story I'm working on, I'm working on my scripting and mapping.
My design goals here was to set up a feasible introduction that doesn't leave the player confused on what's going on. I leave a note in the prison cell that explains a little backstory, about how there's a war going on and people are being imprisoned by an oppressive and brutal regime. Not much too spoiled here, but a little intrigue to get the player going.
This map isn't as linear as it seems...well, okay, it is, but if you explore in the second prison cell and stuff, you'll find an item that'll help you complete an optional quest later on in the game, that may or may not lead to an alternate ending. XD
Do you agree with the design decision that favors exploration for the player finding secrets that will be in use later on? Or should I go the Amnesia route with a clearly defined goal that gives the player a choice at that time, but exploration won't really do much for them.
I think rewarding exploration is important, but in that case, clarify for the player what is making progress, and what counts as exploration.
A simple example:
In the dungeon crawltunnel, you get the option to go left or to go right. If you go want to explore for goodies (even if there aren't any in those tunnels) and you go left, then you'd at best have to curse before returning to head right, down the "exploration path" (that ends in a dead end where there could have been goodies stashed). At worst, the tunnel will collapse behind you, and if that 50-50% chance cut you off from the good ending, you'd be really pissed about it.
This is why Dead Space has the "magical pathfinding thingie": So that you can know which route makes progress, and what route means side quests. In Amnesia, you'll have to do the equivalent with notes and mementos. People who don't read them may not get the good ending, but that serves them right.
Another thing about exploration, is that the players knows that the game will give him a fair challenge as long as he stays on the marked path. I personally think that straying to places where you're not supposed to go, should be a high-risc high-reward affair, but that's just me.
PS. That chandelier at the stairs... Consider raising the ceiling it's attached to if possible.
(04-06-2012, 01:56 AM)Putmalk Wrote: By the way, you guys can post videos in this thread for critique. It is an open discussion on design.
So, here goes. New custom story I'm working on, I'm working on my scripting and mapping.
My design goals here was to set up a feasible introduction that doesn't leave the player confused on what's going on. I leave a note in the prison cell that explains a little backstory, about how there's a war going on and people are being imprisoned by an oppressive and brutal regime. Not much too spoiled here, but a little intrigue to get the player going.
This map isn't as linear as it seems...well, okay, it is, but if you explore in the second prison cell and stuff, you'll find an item that'll help you complete an optional quest later on in the game, that may or may not lead to an alternate ending. XD
Do you agree with the design decision that favors exploration for the player finding secrets that will be in use later on? Or should I go the Amnesia route with a clearly defined goal that gives the player a choice at that time, but exploration won't really do much for them.
I think rewarding exploration is important, but in that case, clarify for the player what is making progress, and what counts as exploration.
A simple example:
In the dungeon crawltunnel, you get the option to go left or to go right. If you go want to explore for goodies (even if there aren't any in those tunnels) and you go left, then you'd at best have to curse before returning to head right, down the "exploration path" (that ends in a dead end where there could have been goodies stashed). At worst, the tunnel will collapse behind you, and if that 50-50% chance cut you off from the good ending, you'd be really pissed about it.
This is why Dead Space has the "magical pathfinding thingie": So that you can know which route makes progress, and what route means side quests. In Amnesia, you'll have to do the equivalent with notes and mementos. People who don't read them may not get the good ending, but that serves them right.
Another thing about exploration, is that the players knows that the game will give him a fair challenge as long as he stays on the marked path. I personally think that straying to places where you're not supposed to go, should be a high-risc high-reward affair, but that's just me.
PS. That chandelier at the stairs... Consider raising the ceiling it's attached to if possible.
Good point. I'll keep this in mind in future maps. The use of notes to differentiate between where you should go and what is exploration is not a bad idea...I may have completely optional maps that are puzzle-focused that reward you with items you need to complete the good ending...whatever that good ending will be, haha.
Yes, of course they are. The *only* way to get a scare out of somebody talking to chairs instead of reading notes, is to throw screaming guys at him. That's a thing between PewDiePie and his level-recommending fans, and you shouldn't watch him if you want to see LPs of good maps. (If he would play a good map, he'd only ruin it.)
For what it's worth Putmalk I would say it is better to have that element of exploration, and having unforeseen rewards better still. You just have to make sure that there is no good or bad ending, just alternate endings each as 'good' as each other. As Cranky Old Man says you don't want players feeling pissed off cause they didn't get the ending they wanted
As long as you make it clear to the player that exploration is important, there is no need to discern between correct and incorrect paths, and if you really do manage to pull off having multiple paths of progression as well as multiple ending, that would be a far more interesting design decision than having one path with optional extras in side-rooms. It'll just take a lot more work.
Aside from that, it's a very good looking map mate nice work. It definitely looks like something I don't want to play, and that's a compliment
I want to elaborate a bit on the jump scares, because I feel like I didn't explain it right.
Jump scares, in my opinion, make the player jumpy and nervous, but only for a few seconds after they happen. Now, this can be good, if you integrate them into the story well, for example, in the Choir, there was the iron maiden jump scare that got everybody jumped. Now, this made sense, due to Daniel's psyche that messed him up, and it fit into the story well.
A bad jump scare, ones that I've seen in custom stories a lot, would be a random object flying at the player when he opens a door, or a monster right behind it for no reason, or an object appearing in a chair and then disappearing within a second, all for no reason other than to make the player jumpy. If there's no plot reason behind the scare, then it comes off as cheap, and it's especially bad if it's overdone like they usually are. Instead of jump scares, ambient noises that make the player uneasy, follow by tightly scripted events that make the player question whether or not what's happening is real would enhance the horror and the gameplay.
Double post, I'm sorry, but it's another topic for discussion.
What do you classify as a non-linear map, and how would you design such a map?
I guess if you double post it just tacks on at the end of the previous one? Hot damn.
When it comes to the type of endings, we've all gotten baby-cuddling good and baby-eating evil endings before. There are other ways to end games. In horror games I prefer a "Just how much did you prevent your doom?" kind of ending. If you take away a perfect ending, you can also get a dramatic choice, where you can either save your best friend or the woman you love.
In Amnesia, I found that the perfect way to end The Dark Descent, would be to give the player the BAD ending if he had picked up and read over half of his diary pages. Overcome with guilt from once again remembering what he had done, he willingly surrenders to be killed by the shadow. It'd be a perfect horror twist (and a slap on the back of the players head for not understanding that Daniel chose to forget for a reason) and at the same time you could play the game a little faster the second time around, by not reading the diary pages.
(04-06-2012, 04:00 PM)Putmalk Wrote: Double post, I'm sorry, but it's another topic for discussion.
What do you classify as a non-linear map, and how would you design such a map?
I guess if you double post it just tacks on at the end of the previous one? Hot damn.
I'll just say what I believe to be a linear map. I think these are maps that after you have passed an area, there's little to no point treading across the same ground twice. There's just nothing there. Maps where you can, and have a meaning to, go back to previous places be they hubs or some other form of non linearity is what I consider non-linear.
A reason I dislike linearity as a game design is that when you think about it, it's unrealistic. Like say, linear building designs are frankly a waste of space. Buildings without "hubs", and only straight hallways are super-hard to navigate for any person, don't you think? Even though this sometimes can be justified by locked doors, and/or debris, I think non-linear is overall more immersing to the player. This still depends on the type of game at hand though.
Amnesia had level hub's, but it was still what I would call a linear design. To me, linearity is in the guiding of the player. Take the first level hub in Amnesia, where you need to get through past the growth thing blocking the door leading down, but to do it you need to go to the archives, wine cellar and laboratory first. I guess you could get the parts for the chemical mix first going through those areas in any particular order, but the game guides you along that path, one room to the next, collecting the parts in order to progress along the next path. There is still only one way to progress, which is perfectly great for kind of experience Frictional were creating.
To me, non-linearity in game design requires there to be no set path at all, not just a variety of paths with set goals. Free-roaming games like the Elder Scrolls series still have linearity in their quest and dungeon design. There arn't many truly non-linear games I can think of, and most of the ones I can are in situations where linearity would be irrelevant, like strategy or simulation games. For first person games, shooters or otherwise, I may be wrong but I can't think of an example where it has been consistently non-linear. I'm trying to make an entirely non-linear experience for my FC, the end of the game will likely be in sight from the outset, leaving curiosity the sole guiding force for the player, and leaving the player to decide exactly where to go, how much to explore and when to bring it all to an end.
Like you Kreekakon I find non-linearity far more immersive. For others, it can just means they end up not knowing what to do or where to go, breaking the experience.
That would be an interesting way to split the ending Cranky Old Man, but since the majority of the solid information you get about the story behind the game comes from reading the diary notes, if the player viewed it as being 'punished' for being inquisitive about the storyline, you'd get some pissed off players. Its a bad perspective to take, feeling like an ending wasn't as good as another you could have gotten, I far prefer taking the consequences of whatever actions as simply the way it has to be, but some players just don't view Game narratives in that way sadly.
Concerning non-linear story lines, do any of you remembers those books where at the bottom of each page, the reader had to make a choice, and based on that choice flip to a certain page in the book? Could that sort of idea be applied to an Amnesia story line? It would definitely give the story some "replay value".
(04-06-2012, 10:11 PM)andyrockin123 Wrote: Concerning non-linear story lines, do any of you remembers those books where at the bottom of each page, the reader had to make a choice, and based on that choice flip to a certain page in the book? Could that sort of idea be applied to an Amnesia story line? It would definitely give the story some "replay value".
I find replay value really useless in games like Amnesia. Its just tons of more development time which could be used to polish stuff for greater one time experience.
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