[INTERESTING ARTICLE; See Page 8] Discussion: Thoughts on Piracy

[failedALIAS]

Googolplex,. DO NOT insult ego shooters. the modern shooter is exactly that, a modern shooter, a cod clone,, an EGO shooter is duke 3d, half life, Classic Quake, Classic Doom, Nolf, Nightfire, Agent Under Fire, GE64, PD 64, Contract Jack, Serious Sam , Wolfenstein 3d, Wolfenstein IOS and RTCW, etc, something that is 100 times HARDER than any modern shooter on its hardest when the ego shooter is on "tourist" (v-easy). you hate shooters, fine, just remember, there is a Big difference between a modern shooter and an ego shooter. dont tarnish them with the same brush, or you will be asking to be flamed, beleive me.

although, you do have a point, ive been looking a lot at stuff from "ex devs" companies that have been shut becuase there IP didnt sell well enough to satisfy the bean counters, or they have just shut up shop in disgust. im going to go by comparing the Modern Shooter, and the EGO shooter.

a typical level, for a game like Call of Duty (modern shooter), takes about 2 weeks for 60 guys to make, thats all the setpeices, Scripting, ruddy first Person Cutscenes, QTE's the works. as they are just a simple Singular corridor between invisible walls, following a linear path, you see all those hills and buildings, they are just Static RENDERS, they are not part of the map, they are basically a pre rendered "wallbox", like a skybox but at ground level. above all, the game can only follow that path at moments when the SCRIPT allows it, if you try and "jump the script" and move on in the level, it will actually, after about 20 seconds, LOCK the script and crash the game, hence the "return to combat zone" and 10 second timer, its not to keep the player in an "exiting replication of a military gunfight" (look, if i wanted a "realistic" military gunfight, i'd join the Marines, when i play a game, i want FUN!) its to protect the game from having a total script breakdown.

a typical level for something like Serious Sam III (EGO shooter) took the same number of guys, over a MONTH, and that is without the Setpeices, or special effects, just the basic level map, secret placements and AI placements. as these levels are cobwebs of multiple interlinking pathways, secret rooms, huge arenas, Multiple layers stacked on top of each other, loop arounds, dead ends with traps, and the whole level is there, if you can see it, you can go there, nothing is blocked off with an invisible wall, if its rendered in the graphics engine, you can go there, just like you could in games like QUAKE and DOOm and Duke Nukem 3d,. the places you cant go, are rendered in skybox. you can go were you want in a level, see a massive great scrapjack? your not funnelled into a direct face to face, you can jink down one of several hundred allies, take down a few headless grunts (and maybe the odd kamikaze) on the way, flank the swine, and let him have 30 rounds of HPMX4000 heatseakers right up the poophole. no scripting, you are rewarded for exploring.

now remember, COD levels take about 2 weeks to make, and there are only a pathetic 13-15 of them, some COD clones can have as low as 6. now the average is 14, my maths isnt great but, thas 14X2,. 28 weeks. thats 2 and a half months.

SSII (the cartoony one most people dont like, but i still think is great) maps took a month, and there is about 40 of them! even with my bad maths, that equates to nearly... 3 ...years!

and you tell me casual games are not easy to make and effortless compared to a proper game.

also, remember, the average modern game doesnt have AI, it has a script, its why it diosnt react to you until you enter its "zone". its also actually why you get rubberbanding in racing games, because the script says you need to overtake it here- here- and here, and the game will teleport the Artifact, to ensure it matches its script.

its why you dont get a boss anymore in shooters, because, since Half Life, a BOSS needs to transform its tactics in response to the players actions, that means it needs AI, its much easier to just create a QTE, wich takes about 3 days.

scripting the impression of an AI takes about 18 months, to create an actual reactive, logical AI engine, and to test it in all levels, conditions, circumstances and permutations can take nearly 2 years.

then we come to cutscenes, these satellite cutscenes, they can all be done, rendered, in ONE DAY. same for first person cutscenes, as you are using the ingame artifacts and rendering, you can create one, via scripting, in about 2 weeks.

to create a third person cutscene, you need to create specialised hi poly, hi def charachter models, as youll be seeing them a lot closer than you would in FP view. you need to programme special "camara placements" in the map, and you need to run "dress" rehersals with real actors, or just the studio staff if your on a budget, to ensure it will look right in game. you need to script movement for artifacts in the scene, you need to create high quality facial expression animation, again, because you are seeing the face up close and personal, and you need to script the camara to Pan with movement, this takes time as it needs to be scriptedf top match the movement EXACTLY or the cutscene is going to look odd and the reviewers will massacre it. these can take over a month to make, and that is just for a little 4 minuite vignette, you start getting into the sort of cutscenese Kojima makes, and we are talking hollywood timescales!

todays games need a lot less work than classic games, there is less to make, they need less programming. so yes, they are easy to make and require no effort, compared to the games of yesteryear and the few "proper" Non AAA games that are still being made by the indies or the 3 big publishers that still have some guts and are willing to take a risk!

I think he meant the only purpose is to feed assholes and their egos. . .
Also, took too long, did not read.

[the dark side]

seriously, do you Have to put TL-DR,, or "too long, didnt read" its downright Irratating, as well as seriously embarassing, it makes the poster who put it, look, basically, no offense here, just simple personal opinion aimed at no one in particular, lazy, unintelligent, and trollish,. if a person cant be bothered to read a big post, fine, just dont tell everyone and show yourself up.

basically though, if people want short posts, then surely twitter would be better for them.

i joined this place to discuss things in depth, not post 1 sentance, casual gamer style troll posts about how "gamne x iz roxorz!!11!!", leave that for that facebook/twitter "anti-social network" rubbish.

you really shouldnt ignore that post of mine people, as it explains, with genuine insider knowledge, just how lazy todays AAA Games are, and how cheaply made they are, and how rushed out they have become, compared to classic games, they only have a quater of the programming. it really is vital information that can be used as "ammo" against the big megacorps.

[Your Computer]

Read what my friend said again, and he says, "curious to learn", as opposed to "required to learn". Sometimes people/students just want to get a product, and dissect the whole thing by themselves without any sort of organized class, or instruction. They simply want to prepare themselves for their future, or just have fun. Look at deviantArt, and Newgrounds. Now I have no idea about the actual statistics, but I would say there should be at least a considerable amount of people there who created their work, and learned how to do it with pirated software.

If piracy was completely halted, these people would not be able to create their own artistic work, and Adobe doesn't really need to care, because the majority of these people would be doing it on their free time on their own computers, and would very rarely have a large impact on the actual commercial market. Without piracy, we could be very well denied these works.

Whether it be "curious to learn" or "just for fun," it does not follow that it would be impossible for anyone to learn the software without piracy. And if we were to consider those who look to make a career out of working with said software, pirating the software, especially for said reasons, implies that they will fail at making a career out of using the software. Without education or experience equivalent to education, no wise business would hire the individual, lest the business seeks to fail. Indeed, they would not have a large impact on the market. It is not surprising to see a lot of the work being posted on the internet as if it were simply for display.

Plus, if a person be so incompetent in art without image- or sound-manipulation software, then perhaps they are designed to fail. How do you think people manage to create a work of art without software? You require this knowledge of the past to master everything the software provides. Without it, you'll be blown away by the competition. If pirating software implies a higher chance of failure of making a large impact on the market, why argue that piracy is (or can be) beneficial?

If piracy is stopped Adobe could still very well STILL not provide a free version of the software, as the main buyers will still be companies, and the official schools that teach it. Most of these facilities will typically buy a whole suite of the software for their computers which are then in turn used by the students/employees. The average consumer never did contribute a substantial amount to their earnings because of the price.

Schools and business would be perfectly fine reusing older versions of software. This would force companies like Adobe to either reconsider their prices or increase quality for their products to justify the price or both. Plus, Adobe gives discounts to schools and students for most of their products, and their upgrade prices are pretty reasonable. A free version of their products is not required. And what about an individual who never had to purchase the product because their school or job provided it for them?

[Gaviao]

1 thing i have to disagree,CoD maps takes a lot longer than 2 weeks because they make really big maps(for campaign) in CoD mw3,mw2 for example, they made the entire New york,Paris,a city in russia than idk the name,another city in africa that idk the name too,rio de janeiro in brazil,a city in china that idk the name too, and another 26 maps that idk the name that is based in diferent places of the world, they probably have taken at least 1 month to make the maps, not 2 weeks, it's not so easy do an entire map with new models,npcs,and events.
(google translator)

[the dark side]

no, they are not big maps gaviao. they are just Long maps, there is a considerable differance. they actually cover a very small amount of real estate width and height wise. they are just one Long corridor, between invisible walls, this takes a very short amount of time to make. all the stuff you see in the background, the places you cant go, that is PRE RENDERED, like a SkyBox. the MAP is just the corridor you walk down. what you have described, all the city you can see is PRE RENDERED scenery dressing, im talking about the MAP, the actuall area the player is confined too in terms of actuall physical movement space,. above all, they are NOT all that big really, the average level in a COD clone takes between 10 and 20 mins, but remember, your charachter has a VERY slow movement pace, and you spend a lot of that time standing still as well to either aim down the sites, or hide behind a rock to make the jelly go away, at least 5 of those minuites is also QTE or cutscene on average.

if your charachter didnt stand still, and moved at a higher pace (say take the movement speed and times by ten), and you removed the QTE's and cutscenes, what you would have is about 4 minuites.

a classic Map, at the high movement speed of a classic character, the constant movement, lack of QTE and cutscenes included, takes between 10 minuites and 2 HOURS. due to the multitude of secrets, interconnecting pathways, dead ends, etc. they are far bigger, yes, they have a much smaller "Length", say, within that hour, you may have only travelled from one side of an oil rifinery to another, instead of from one end of paris to the other, but, they are a lot Wider and a Lot taller, and have over 20 different routes through on average, instead of the ONE route of a modern map.

remember, all this info comes from inside the games industry from ex developers.

look, i know this Image is over-used, but its the only way im going to show you how levels have degraded, the Image is 2 genuine maps, one from 1993 (DOOM), one from 2010 (Black Ops).



you cannot disagree with genuine maps, they are indesputable visual proof of how much less there is to programme in terms of Physical Map. scenery is NOT Map. scenery is scenery and does not count,. Map is actual physical movement area.

now, i wont be on again until saturday, see you all then.

[Melvin]

I only pirate a game if I want to test something (like a mod) because I dont want my original game files to be messed up, or if the game isn't in the stores anymore Too bad some good titles are taken out and replaced by the so called ''good'' stuff..

[Gaviao]

no, they are not big maps gaviao. they are just Long maps, there is a considerable differance. they actually cover a very small amount of real estate width and height wise. they are just one Long corridor, between invisible walls, this takes a very short amount of time to make. all the stuff you see in the background, the places you cant go, that is PRE RENDERED, like a SkyBox. the MAP is just the corridor you walk down. what you have described, all the city you can see is PRE RENDERED scenery dressing, im talking about the MAP, the actuall area the player is confined too in terms of actuall physical movement space,. above all, they are NOT all that big really, the average level in a COD clone takes between 10 and 20 mins, but remember, your charachter has a VERY slow movement pace, and you spend a lot of that time standing still as well to either aim down the sites, or hide behind a rock to make the jelly go away, at least 5 of those minuites is also QTE or cutscene on average.

if your charachter didnt stand still, and moved at a higher pace (say take the movement speed and times by ten), and you removed the QTE's and cutscenes, what you would have is about 4 minuites.

a classic Map, at the high movement speed of a classic character, the constant movement, lack of QTE and cutscenes included, takes between 10 minuites and 2 HOURS. due to the multitude of secrets, interconnecting pathways, dead ends, etc. they are far bigger, yes, they have a much smaller "Length", say, within that hour, you may have only travelled from one side of an oil rifinery to another, instead of from one end of paris to the other, but, they are a lot Wider and a Lot taller, and have over 20 different routes through on average, instead of the ONE route of a modern map.

remember, all this info comes from inside the games industry from ex developers.

look, i know this Image is over-used, but its the only way im going to show you how levels have degraded, the Image is 2 genuine maps, one from 1993 (DOOM), one from 2010 (Black Ops).



you cannot disagree with genuine maps, they are indesputable visual proof of how much less there is to programme in terms of Physical Map. scenery is NOT Map. scenery is scenery and does not count,. Map is actual physical movement area.

now, i wont be on again until saturday, see you all then.

omg... my favorite game is a disgrace, WHY D=

[Ghieri]

Not a disgrace. Most games add features to their maps that make them seem bigger than they really are. Amnesia has at least a couple of features like this:

-outside the window of the study. A whole forest is there, but you cannot explore it.
-A caged-off spiral staircase leading downwards in the prison. You cannot access it, it's only for detail.

It's just a way for the developers to trick the mind into thinking the map is real.

[darkely]

I buy some games and pirate others - games that I love like Mirrors Edge, The Ball, Penumbra (all), and Amnesia (which I pirated first but bought it later on) I happily bought.

YC: you say that those who pirate are bound to fail? no I don't believe that at all. My cousin for instance he buys some software however he rents DVD's from Redbox and rips a copy of it (hes got at least 500 DVD's worth of them) and he pirates some Xbox 360 games (again he has a huge album of them). Though he still buys a lot of his games but how does any of this make him bound to fail?!

He is married, is a lawyer in Virgina, owns his own home which he is working on currently and is a soon to be father. What part of that says "failure" to you?

As for the legal portion you mentioned the worst I've heard is getting an e-mail or a strongly worded letter. Ya a letter with bold print that'll stop em'!!!

Anyway I am sorry if others disagree but at the end of the day I am not going to cry myself to sleep for pirating some video game that was made %70 in part with the software, %25 Publisher, and %5 Maker. I know someone is going to get ticked off with my little percentages however I think that the software does A LOT of the work for the maker in the first place - if anything the maker of the software (that was used to make the game) should be the one getting most of the praise.

[Kman]

Anyway I am sorry if others disagree but at the end of the day I am not going to cry myself to sleep for pirating some video game that was made %70 in part with the software, %25 Publisher, and %5 Maker. I know someone is going to get ticked off with my little percentages however I think that the software does A LOT of the work for the maker in the first place - if anything the maker of the software (that was used to make the game) should be the one getting most of the praise.

If you honestly think this then you don't understand the process of how a game is made. There's no software that can make concept arts for you, there is no software that can write a story for you, there is no software that can create textures for you, there is no software that can make models for you, there is no software that can make animations for you, there is no software that can build entire levels for you, etc. etc. etc. I do get ticked off by your little precentages, but not because "I'm so mad the truth is finally coming out to me", it's cause you obviously think you know what you're talking about when really you're just pulling this stuff out your ass (this same thing applies to a few posts in this thread actually).