Time?

[failedALIAS]

Actually, I'd argue for the naturalistic view of mathematics. Even if all of humanity were to disappear from the universe, the fact would remain (assuming that there is an objective reality) that two plus two equals four, because if you put two apples beside another two apples, there would be four apples.

That said, maths problems and equations are more an unpacking of truths that are already existent within the universe. So, if you solve 3x = 12, for example, you aren't creating a value for "x"; "x" has always been 4 because putting three groups of four apples together would give you twelve apples. The same goes with theorems. Pythagoras' theorem has always existed within nature, it just took some time for us to discover it.

This is exactly my point. Mathematics doesn't need us to exist.

But it needs us(or perhaps some other intelligent organisms) to serve a purpose. A rock falling and hitting the ground doesn't need the existence of mathematics at all, yet the action can still be translated to a algebraic expression or equation. THINK ABOUT WHAT I'M ACTUALLY SAYING!! Yes if you add a single apple to another apple it will result in "two" apples, but this isn't mathematics! This is simply amounts and figuratively "grouping" the separate solids.

If you pour 2 quarters of milk into another 2 quarters of glass, then you'll get the whole of another amount of milk. Doesn't mean that the amount of milk is incomplete otherwise, but just by our understanding of our measurements it wouldn't be equal to one of the measurements we know(figuratively).

For nearly everything we humans encounter, there is a measurement if needed that translates existing amounts into confirmable and understandable measured quantities. We do this with the apples, so that we may communicate and thoroughly understand how many there are. Ancient civilizations did this thousands of years ago to know what size of fucking rock they needed for a structure or other purpose! Counting, Numbers, Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication and Division are all so that we may understand the Universe and our own world and our own problems more easily!
Multiplication is a perfect example of this! 3x3 is the same(or as we translate; equal to) 3+3+3, and yet people will often prefer using the former as it is faster and requiring of less steps!

In a Universe without humans(I'm just now saying any intelligence meaning humans, okay!? Very ironic), a rock hitting another rock in space would just fucking be a rock hitting another rock in space! (Now I actually want you to contradict this one statement, because that'll really help with what I'm trying to say here!)

[Prelauncher]

But it needs us(or perhaps some other intelligent organisms) to serve a purpose. A rock falling and hitting the ground doesn't need the existence of mathematics at all, yet the action can still be translated to a algebraic expression or equation. THINK ABOUT WHAT I'M ACTUALLY SAYING!! Yes if you add a single apple to another apple it will result in "two" apples, but this isn't mathematics! This is simply amounts and figuratively "grouping" the separate solids.

If you pour 2 quarters of milk into another 2 quarters of glass, then you'll get the whole of another amount of milk. Doesn't mean that the amount of milk is incomplete otherwise, but just by our understanding of our measurements it wouldn't be equal to one of the measurements we know(figuratively).

For nearly everything we humans encounter, there is a measurement if needed that translates existing amounts into confirmable and understandable measured quantities. We do this with the apples, so that we may communicate and thoroughly understand how many there are. Ancient civilizations did this thousands of years ago to know what size of fucking rock they needed for a structure or other purpose! Counting, Numbers, Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication and Division are all so that we may understand the Universe and our own world and our own problems more easily!
Multiplication is a perfect example of this! 3x3 is the same(or as we translate; equal to) 3+3+3, and yet people will often prefer using the former as it is faster and requiring of less steps!

In a Universe without humans(I'm just now saying any intelligence meaning humans, okay!? Very ironic), a rock hitting another rock in space would just fucking be a rock hitting another rock in space! (Now I actually want you to contradict this one statement, because that'll really help with what I'm trying to say here!)

Mathematics doesn't need us in order to serve a purpose. Take for example atoms. Atoms are highly dependant on mathematics. On order to create a molecule you have to take into consideration electronegativity, molar mass, the angles between the atoms, energy required for the reaction, valence electrons etc. Atoms require perfect mathematics in order to build the universe and us humans.

[failedALIAS]

But it needs us(or perhaps some other intelligent organisms) to serve a purpose. A rock falling and hitting the ground doesn't need the existence of mathematics at all, yet the action can still be translated to a algebraic expression or equation. THINK ABOUT WHAT I'M ACTUALLY SAYING!! Yes if you add a single apple to another apple it will result in "two" apples, but this isn't mathematics! This is simply amounts and figuratively "grouping" the separate solids.

If you pour 2 quarters of milk into another 2 quarters of glass, then you'll get the whole of another amount of milk. Doesn't mean that the amount of milk is incomplete otherwise, but just by our understanding of our measurements it wouldn't be equal to one of the measurements we know(figuratively).

For nearly everything we humans encounter, there is a measurement if needed that translates existing amounts into confirmable and understandable measured quantities. We do this with the apples, so that we may communicate and thoroughly understand how many there are. Ancient civilizations did this thousands of years ago to know what size of fucking rock they needed for a structure or other purpose! Counting, Numbers, Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication and Division are all so that we may understand the Universe and our own world and our own problems more easily!
Multiplication is a perfect example of this! 3x3 is the same(or as we translate; equal to) 3+3+3, and yet people will often prefer using the former as it is faster and requiring of less steps!

In a Universe without humans(I'm just now saying any intelligence meaning humans, okay!? Very ironic), a rock hitting another rock in space would just fucking be a rock hitting another rock in space! (Now I actually want you to contradict this one statement, because that'll really help with what I'm trying to say here!)

Mathematics doesn't need us in order to serve a purpose. Take for example atoms. Atoms are highly dependant on mathematics. On order to create a molecule you have to take into consideration electronegativity, molar mass, the angles between the atoms, energy required for the reaction, valence electrons etc. Atoms require perfect mathematics in order to build the universe and us humans.

Unless everything was structured from random.
Even assuming they do; It's our own translations of what an unthinking force does that allows you to even say "electronegativity, molar mass, the angles between the atoms, energy required for the reaction, valence electrons" without over 7 paragraphs. Also, Atoms don't do what they do because they plan it out; they do what they do because they have certain reactions, and attractions(along with many, many other things I don't want to list) to certain other atoms, based on the other atoms, and their own functions and principle and MANY MANY OTHER THINGS!!!

---

MATHEMATICS IS A SYSTEM OF SHIT THAT WE DEVELOPED BASED UPON THE REACTIONS AND ACTIVITIES AND FUNCTIONS OF OTHER SHIT THAT ACTUALLY EXISTS!! IT'S HOW WE EASILY TRANSLATE THOSE OTHER REAL-SHIT-THINGS SO THAT THEY MAKE MORE SENSE!
MATH WAS DEVELOPED TO TRANSLATE PRACTICALLY EVERYTHING IN OBSERVABLE EXISTENCE SO THAT WE MAY UNDERSTAND AND SOLVE COMPLEX AND SIMPLE PROBLEMS PRESENTED BY THE NATURAL UNIVERSE! I AM ATTEMPTING TO EXPLAIN IDEAS TO PEOPLE WHO KEEP REPEATING THE SAME THINGS OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND I WANT TO KILL MYSELF AT THIS POINT!!!

A astroid could be flying through space, and there might be a expression or equation applicable to everything about the movement, mass, and other shit with the astroid. THIS ISN'T BECAUSE MATHEMATICS IS A NATURALLY OCCURRING FORCE IN THE UNIVERSE - THIS IS BECAUSE WE CREATED A FUCKING THINGY TO FUCKING TRANSLATE EVERYTHING ABOUT THE MOVEMENT, MASS, AND OTHER SHIT WITH THE ASTROID!!! It's a concept, based on an existent force, object, amount, or practically everything else. Now please, PLEASE actually think about what I'm saying. FUCKING THINK ABOUT IT!!!

[Prelauncher]

Mathematics doesn't need us in order to serve a purpose. Take for example atoms. Atoms are highly dependant on mathematics. On order to create a molecule you have to take into consideration electronegativity, molar mass, the angles between the atoms, energy required for the reaction, valence electrons etc. Atoms require perfect mathematics in order to build the universe and us humans.

Unless everything was structured from random.
Even assuming they do; It's our own translations of what an unthinking force does that allows you to even say "electronegativity, molar mass, the angles between the atoms, energy required for the reaction, valence electrons" without over 7 paragraphs. Also, Atoms don't do what they do because they plan it out; they do what they do because they have certain reactions, and attractions(along with many, many other things I don't want to list) to certain other atoms, based on the other atoms, and their own functions and principle and MANY MANY OTHER THINGS!!!

Nothing is constructed by random, there's nothing random when it comes to atoms. As BAndrew wrote before: I think that you are mistaking the language mathematics with actuall mathematics.
"Atoms don't do what they do because they plan it out." When did I ever say that atoms plan their reactions? That's just plain silly.
Through the language for mathematics (i.e. 1+2=3, 90 degrees, roots etc.) we can describe the mathematics in nature.

For example. The angle in a water molecule. If you were to draw a line from one hydrogen atom to the oxygen atom and then to the second hydrogen atom they would have an angle of either 109 degrees or 104 degrees. With the language mathematics we can say that they have a tetrahedral angle. But mathematics prevents the atoms from having any other angle.

Think of the difference between the language mathematics and mathematics as emotions. You don't need a language in order to feel an emotion. For example, love. With language you can describe the emotion love, but you can still feel love without turning it into words.

[failedALIAS]

For example, love. With language you can describe the emotion love, but you can still feel love without turning it into words.

A can describe it with one word(from the english language): Horrible.

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Also, I was using the idea as a hypothetical. IF the state of atoms was random, then your entire argument would fall apart.
The language thing, I don't even KNOW what to say about that.

---

Did you even consider the other things I said? Really?

[nemesis567]

Math may fail with one using a useless formula, they dreamed of in a peaceful night. Math is our own invention, thus affected entirely by our own decisions and actions.

That.

[Prelauncher]

Oh God, the quotes!

[Your Computer]

I never thought i'd say this, but i'm with failedALIAS on math's existence.

[failedALIAS]

I never thought i'd say this, but i'm with failedALIAS on math's existence.

Don't know whether to be happy or sad.

[Kazakarumariou]

I never thought i'd say this, but i'm with failedALIAS on math's existence.

Don't know whether to be happy or sad.

depends on what kind of computer it is