[SPOILER] Plot Discussion Thread *Spoiler Alert*

[jacksepticeye]

Ok, there is one very strong argument in favor of the theory that Oswald's body is the one in the Iron Lung. Occam's Razor. According to it it can be Mandus, Professor or Father Jeremiah. But there is no indication whatsoever that it is in fact Prof. or Jeremiah, whereas there are all those notes about Oswald being split in two half one of which is sleeping. So, Occam's Razor, it really is Oswald inside the Lung.

Let's assume it's true. But when is he plunged inside the Lung? There's a lot of questions here, because on one hand he kills his children somewhere around 1st December (so he has to be human at this point), and on the other hand he says he was bisected (which must be the point where he is plunged in the Lung) and one half built the machine which can't be in December, because then he already knows that the Machine has to be destroyed.
It only would be possible if there were two Oswalds physically, one sleeping in the Lung and one possessed by the Orb, building the Machine and spilling blood.

Also, by the moment I can't abandon the idea of the Machine being a God which needs blood to enter our world. Because Oswald, even if we relive his memories, would not be able to predict the future (XX century) and would not tell to himself that he is the one killing dissidents, waging wars and so on (Machine's final dialogue).

Maybe Mandus became one of those insane creatures ripped from one world to another. Would explain the teleporting and the environment shifting. Otherwise I don't see the point of including that aspect at all in the game.

[just passing by]

Hey everyone, im not realy a forum regular but i just wanted to be part of the discussion considering AMFP has one of the most vague but at the same time interesting storylines i've seen. I might be reading to much into thing but there's just one line thats been bugging me.

So i think in 20ish pages thechineseroom said something about looking deeper into the mandus' diary. So i looked, and there's just one line thats been bothering me. In one of the last entries he says:

"... descending to smother the firstborn for the death of the two that came after."

Is it just his way of saying he wants revenge for his kids death or something completely different?

[Kein]

http://marshill.com/2012/04/18/what-does...f-the-dead

[just passing by]

http://marshill.com/2012/04/18/what-does...f-the-dead

Hmm, just a metaphor then
Seriously this storyline is making me paranoid.

[Alardem]

Daniel saw visions of what may have been Alexander's world in TDD. One can imagine the 'Stone Egg' to be capable of granting prophetic visions. OR, perhaps, another timeline/universe.

I still feel that something malicious had deliberately fed him a vision modified to display only the worst of our future. Whether it was for some greater agenda (like birthing some eldritch horror to ironically help that future or something darker come into being), or whether the Engineer really is just part of Mandus' fractured psyche, I'm still on the fence. The 'fever' is clearly supernatural, however.

Maybe Mandus was too weak, mentally and physically, to grasp the vast scope of the twentieth century. Being given a chance to avert the upcoming future, he instead seeks to accelerate its horrific consequences to an inhuman extreme.

[Corbent]

Ok, there is one very strong argument in favor of the theory that Oswald's body is the one in the Iron Lung. Occam's Razor. According to it it can be Mandus, Professor or Father Jeremiah. But there is no indication whatsoever that it is in fact Prof. or Jeremiah, whereas there are all those notes about Oswald being split in two half one of which is sleeping. So, Occam's Razor, it really is Oswald inside the Lung.

Let's assume it's true. But when is he plunged inside the Lung? There's a lot of questions here, because on one hand he kills his children somewhere around 1st December (so he has to be human at this point), and on the other hand he says he was bisected (which must be the point where he is plunged in the Lung) and one half built the machine which can't be in December, because then he already knows that the Machine has to be destroyed.
It only would be possible if there were two Oswalds physically, one sleeping in the Lung and one possessed by the Orb, building the Machine and spilling blood.

Also, by the moment I can't abandon the idea of the Machine being a God which needs blood to enter our world. Because Oswald, even if we relive his memories, would not be able to predict the future (XX century) and would not tell to himself that he is the one killing dissidents, waging wars and so on (Machine's final dialogue).

Pretty much my option #2: The Doppelganger Theory

[silentmumbler]

I really like the Mental Play idea, as it seems to have the most in-game evidence. However, I would like to present something else for everyone to consider. I think Oswald was the original person. The one who built went to Mexico and built the Machine. I think what happened is that when he split in two, it meant his consciousness split into 2, creating Mandus (a play on the word "madness?"). Here's where I'm going to split from what's been said, but first some context.

I agree with the one before who said that Oswald was the one in the Iron Lung. However, I don't think the Iron Lung is life support. When you look inside, you can see his is networked into the Machine through his eyes, allowing him to control it and see through it. There is also a tube attached to his genitals to remove wastes, as well as multiple tubes in his mouth, which could be multi-purposed for communication, air supply, and nutrition. In addition, the body is partially submerged in Compound X, which could act as an extra method of controlling the Machine. I think he plugged himself into the Machine after sacrificing his kids, as his only purpose in life after that was the Machine.

Now then, I think Mandus' consciousness may have been expelled from the original body, possibly into that of another human or even a pigman. Pigman is more probable though, as the connection between the pigmen and the Machine would provide a pathway for Mandus to a body, and that would also give some meaning to the pigmasks everywhere (you are a literal pig, in addition to a metaphorical one). This would give Mandus the ability to physically damage the Machine, though everything he perceived would still be a product of his other self.

Doesn't make any sense? Tell me. I'm new to this stuff.

[Corbent]

I really like the Mental Play idea, as it seems to have the most in-game evidence. However, I would like to present something else for everyone to consider. I think Oswald was the original person. The one who built went to Mexico and built the Machine. I think what happened is that when he split in two, it meant his consciousness split into 2, creating Mandus (a play on the word "madness?"). Here's where I'm going to split from what's been said, but first some context.

I agree with the one before who said that Oswald was the one in the Iron Lung. However, I don't think the Iron Lung is life support. When you look inside, you can see his is networked into the Machine through his eyes, allowing him to control it and see through it. There is also a tube attached to his genitals to remove wastes, as well as multiple tubes in his mouth, which could be multi-purposed for communication, air supply, and nutrition. In addition, the body is partially submerged in Compound X, which could act as an extra method of controlling the Machine. I think he plugged himself into the Machine after sacrificing his kids, as his only purpose in life after that was the Machine.

Now then, I think Mandus' consciousness may have been expelled from the original body, possibly into that of another human or even a pigman. Pigman is more probable though, as the connection between the pigmen and the Machine would provide a pathway for Mandus to a body, and that would also give some meaning to the pigmasks everywhere (you are a literal pig, in addition to a metaphorical one). This would give Mandus the ability to physically damage the Machine, though everything he perceived would still be a product of his other self.

Doesn't make any sense? Tell me. I'm new to this stuff.

This one has some very good points. The machine says at some point that the Manpigs only obey the Machine. Which means it controls them. Which makes it plausible that his consciousness was tranfered to a Manpig. Which would explain waking up in a cage.

[FromTheSidelines]

One of the biggest issues with the timeline is the twins. Mandus and his alter ego keep talking of them at certain points as if they're still alive ("I can still save them!") and at other points as if they're already dead. The twins' journals would seem to indicate that they lived up until October 1899 at least. Yet during the summer Mandus would often opine about how his new "Children" made him feel like a father again.

I suppose it is possible that Mandus was just spending all his time in his Machine and never saw his twins for long periods and given his already disturbed mind could have believed they were already dead. Unless he did indeed try to resurrect them with Compound X.

Few pages ago we all agreed that Mandus killed them "on the steps" of a second temple, the one he found under London, not in Mexico. This way it makes a lot of sense.

But wasn't it the Priest and the Professor who hint that Mandus's children were killed in Mexico? They refer to a 'tragedy' that occurred there. How would either of them know about the London temple, especially considering the strong possibility it's a figment of Mandus's damaged mind?

[Corbent]

But wasn't it the Priest and the Professor who hint that Mandus's children were killed in Mexico? They refer to a 'tragedy' that occurred there. How would either of them know about the London temple, especially considering the strong possibility it's a figment of Mandus's damaged mind?

Yeah, I remember the mention of a tragedy too. But there are diaries of the twins dated as october, 1899. Which would be a time paradox of the kind that destroys the space-time continuum.