[SPOILER] Plot Discussion Thread *Spoiler Alert*

[Geoff]

Wait a gosh-darn minute....

How is Mandus not marked by the shadow if he touched the orb?(And to some extent, abusing it's power?)

Also, how much do we know about the engineer? I can only remember one reference to him, and that's a conversation between the professor and Mandus, where the Engineer is fully on-board and "has seen the evils of society" to heavily paraphrase? I'm assuming he's the guy who designed the machine?

http://amnesia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Shadow

The Shadow is the mysterious guardian of the Orbs, hunting down and killing anyone unable to fully take control of the Orb


So, obviously, Mandus is able to fully take control.

[aquilantiqua]

Wait a gosh-darn minute....

How is Mandus not marked by the shadow if he touched the orb?(And to some extent, abusing it's power?)

Also, how much do we know about the engineer? I can only remember one reference to him, and that's a conversation between the professor and Mandus, where the Engineer is fully on-board and "has seen the evils of society" to heavily paraphrase? I'm assuming he's the guy who designed the machine?

That's one of my main reasons for believing that Mandus didn't find an orb but something...else. In a note, Mandus explicitly calls the orb used in Brennenburg The Orb, and is aware of the power that orbs can possess. But he never says the word orb again. He only refers to his Stone Egg and there's never a single mention or description of the Shadow, which I take to mean that this was something other than an orb, but perhaps related to it. Justine had the Soapstone that drove her insane and gave her knowledge of the orbs, maybe Mandus came across another, different kind of stone in this array of supernatural objects.

The Engineer is just a name for the evil half of Mandus' personality/soul. He tells the Professor this vague name seemingly to keep him from getting too suspicious about the Machine. As far as I understand it, Mandus designed the Machine.

[johnwohl]

my 2 cents on a few things

I don't think the 2nd temple is anywhere near london at all. In fact. I think it's in the "other dimension".

heres why:

remember this?

Several of the older forms have breached their containment area and escaped into the sewers. (...) It is the heat generated from keeping the doorway between open that is to blame.

- I think they are talking about keeping a doorway between our world and the temple in the other dimension open.

We cannot simply pack them about with coolant as we do at the center where the doorway is. their duality tears them asunder, as the other place flies from their cells and their vitae splinters.

~ The other place being where the other temple is and where the compound X gets its properties.

My theory is something like this.

The compound X needs something, some force maybe, from the other dimension to function.

In order to obtain the componesnts for the compound X, mandus neededed to open a doorway to the other dimension.

doing this required that he sacrifice his twins in the chairs at the 2nd temple so that the gateway could be powered by thier hearts.

ever notice how in the screenshot in this thread, the man in the iron lung appears to have his face painted like an aztek shaman? (white in the middle, red stripes)

the body in the iron lung is yours after having completed the sacrifice. the 3rd heart in the middle of the room before the temple is yours and it activates the gateway.

The room with the heart is the gateway to the other dimension where the other temple is. Notice how the other voice gets panicked as you activate the gateway? It knows you can never completely kill it unless you come to the temple and destroy it at it's source, and activating the gateway in that room is the only way to do so.

When you go into the center of the room under the heart, the screen goes white instead of black. Mandus says oh god help me i am lost in the dry paper soul of the world... meaning the nether between worlds? the place that drives the manpigs crazy?
Once you get in there, I think you kill the machine by becoming your whole self again or something like that.. not sure about that part..

Maybe it's all just a dream. False teeth and eyeglasses are said to have significant meaning in dreams.

It's 5am, I read the whole thread. bedtime.

[kojack]

Also, how much do we know about the engineer? I can only remember one reference to him, and that's a conversation between the professor and Mandus, where the Engineer is fully on-board and "has seen the evils of society" to heavily paraphrase? I'm assuming he's the guy who designed the machine?

Only the Professor uses the name Engineer. When talking to himself, Mandus uses the term Architect.
(Probably a minor point, but if people are searching for references, both terms are needed).

"At the centre of the planet, my architect tells me, there is a great iron ball. It is the egg of the world."
"and the architect has assured me that the excess is being stored safely deep within the factory."
"Assuming the same architect is responsible here as with the chemical plant"
"I am the architect. I am the saboteur. I am the man who murdered his children. I am the man who stood in the duck pond with his dead wife in his arms, wishing the water would bring her back to him. I am the voice on the telephone, I am the butcher who skinned the Professor and beat God to death against the air loom. Only one question remains now. Am I also The Machine?"


Anybody ever seen the movie Jacob's Ladder? It's plot twist could fit the story. Although I hope not, once you know the twist it kind of spoils the events leading up to it.

[rotten]

Anybody ever seen the movie Jacob's Ladder? It's plot twist could fit the story. Although I hope not, once you know the twist it kind of spoils the events leading up to it.

But it doesn't fit the very ending of the game so much, imo. Understanding what happens in the end is crucial to all the other riddles.

johnwohl
I'm liking your theory, but there's a weak spot:

mandus neededed to open a doorway to the other dimension. doing this required that he sacrifice his twins in the chairs at the 2nd temple so that the gateway could be powered by thier hearts.

If the second temple is in another dimension, which accessible only through sacrifice, how did he get there in the first place?

[Alardem]

The temple under London would be a gateway into the other world - all it requires is a massive blood sacrifice.

[Xamalion]

Phew, have been reading through the 50 pages for the last 2 hours and now I will add my own thoughts to the story.

----------------------

Mandus went to Mexico in February 1899, returning in March. The game takes place December 31st 1899. Am I the only one wondering how this really huge machine could've been built in such a short period of time? It's simply impossible imho. I mean ok, the artifact might have helped with the plans, but the actual work had to be done, and judged by the limited possibilitys in that age -> no way! Even today it would take way more time to complete such a complex.

So he went on the journey with the kids, already in a weakend state of mind according to some of the notes (money problems etc). He finds an artefact and the artefact drives him even more crazy.
If Orb or not doesn't play a vital role in this I believe, maybe it was an Orb to link the story to be set in the same universe as TDD, but no more. He has visions of the future. He returns with his two sons still alive, but is more weak than ever and becomes bedridden (there are notes from Jeremiah about this). The visions about his dead wife and the future of his sons are driving him even more into madness. So in his mind the machine is building up, a manifestiation of the madness in it's fortress.

So anytime later he actually kills/or try to kill his sons. The "machine" (aka his crazy side) takes over for a second and he kills/tries to kill them. I say try/tries because I am not sure if they are really dead if my understanding of the events is in any form true.
Understanding what he has done leaves him in an state of hibernation. In his mind, the "machines" rage continues and his darkest fantasies driven by his neverending guilt and disgust of himself reflected on all of humanity (->manpig) come true. In my opionion he is sitting somewhere in a sanatorium or even at home in bed. But we never see the true reality in this game.

It's also interesting that he has this conversations with the professor. I think he is in the real world, he trys to help him. But the machine kills of every voice of reason and throws them into himsef. But maybe the professor pushed through for a second and for a short glimpse his sanity pushes also through and wants to undone everything.
So the last sane part of himself goes on a journey, and that is where our game begins.

In my opinion (and that was already mentioned by others) the machine doesn't exist. It is an embodiment of Mandus mind INSIDE Mandus mind. He is on a journey into his own mind to regain conciousness. All the notes we find contain information from the real world but they are intermingled and/or rewritten with stuff the "machine" did in his mind (the slaughtering ect). I mean seriously, inside the church are two statuettes of the holy mother displayed with pigfaces and holding little pigs breastfeeding on their dugs. If you would build a church like that for real you are in big trouble as soon as someone sees that and talks to certain people. In that age people still were much more religious than these days and this is some of the highest forms of blasphemy. These are all signs for me that this is not happening in the real world.

And in the end, he encounters his dark part in the iron lung. He is about to win back the conciousness, sanity is restoring fast. The "machine" is begging, but he knows what to do. The title of the last chapter has been already discussed, it is named "Edwin, Enoch, Oswald and I".

I (Mandus) is us, the player, the sane part.
Edwin literally means "belonging friend".
Enoch is a mysterious biblic shape which is taken from the earth (disappeared) before it's dead(!).

You can read all this on Wikipedia.

The man on the phone NEVER says Oswald. We are only approached as Mandus. So the man in the iron lung is Oswald, the dark twin, his crazy side. The heart in the southern Tower is Oswald's. He didn't need it anymore, only to power his hatred and rage. Destroying it brings us right to the source of this hatred and rage. And in the end Mandus realised that he had to do the same to restore the balance.

Conclusion: The final words about a dying god and a silence never known is a mind finally at peace. Through all the madness he hears way up in the real world the bells ringing for the birth of the new century while the manpigs are drifting away to silence. And in the last cut we se again the twins (that's why I don't know if they are really dead), and maybe Oswald Mandus (now restored as a whole) has a vision of the two, walking into a future he knows he is no longer part of.

----------------------------

I know, lot of thoughts. Maybe I'm completely wrong. Maybe you can interpret yourself to madness while trying to understand everything. I enjoyed the game a lot, it still has a lasting effect on me (as we can see) and this won't change so soon. I love the machine, so I also have no problem if it is real.
Looking forward to read more of your thoughts and discussing my own!

[Integria]

Going through the first parts of the game again, veeeery slowly, just to see if I missed anything in particular. So far the only thing that I didn't personally notice on my first playthrough was an earlier shift in reality.

When we push aside the bear and enter the room to turn the first valve, the eagle does indeed shift position (from the right corner to the left corner) by the time we return.

Also, I've tried to interact with the few objects so far that can be picked up, but nothing much happens with them. The ball seems useless, and the screwdriver only really manages to get stuck in EVERYTHING. Also, picked up each and every chair and turned if, juuuust to be sure.

Also, it's apparently possible to miss the phones. One of them stopped ringing for me after a while. Furthermore, you can't block the first pig in with chairs (even 14 of them), and there are invisible walls eeeverywhere.

[rotten]

Why don't we have a super-sceprical version?

>Lily dies at childbirth and even after 8 years or so Mandus still grieves at her death.

>Goes to Mexico in search for a treasure, because he's broke.

>Finds nothing but a tropical fever. Comes back to London, his fevered mind gives him a vision of a machine, which would make him rich.

>Constantly works on the factory, becomes more and more indifferent and/or violent towards the children.

>His children descend into the machine and get killed (for example in the steam pipes).

>Mandus blames everyone in the world and visualizes it as if he's been feeding them to the machine.

>Destroys the machine, gets amnesia.

>Travels deep into his subconsciousness, understands that he is the one to blame, accepts the truth and kills himself.


Don't really think this is true, but as a theory it will do.

[Alardem]

Why don't we have a super-sceprical version?

>Lily dies at childbirth and even after 8 years or so Mandus still grieves at her death.

>Goes to Mexico in search for a treasure, because he's broke.

>Finds nothing but a tropical fever. Comes back to London, his fevered mind gives him a vision of a machine, which would make him rich.

>Constantly works on the factory, becomes more and more indifferent and/or violent towards the children.

>His children descend into the machine and get killed (for example in the steam pipes).

>Mandus blames everyone in the world and visualizes it as if he's been feeding them to the machine.

>Destroys the machine, gets amnesia.

>Travels deep into his subconsciousness, understands that he is the one to blame, accepts the truth and kills himself.


Don't really think this is true, but as a theory it will do.

I guess this interpretation discounts any supernatural element?