Feedback wanted: Some questions on Ending (spoilerish)

[winkwinknudgenudge]

my favorite ending was the normal ending (destroying alex without using agripas head) simply because there was an actual cinematic display afterwards... and the last scene where you see the castles entrance door open and credits start rolling before you go outside was very well thought and "penumbraish"

still, that one and the other two endings seemed very short and i was surprised when the credits started rolling.. "wait.. was that it?"

amazing game tho

[Kein]

Now that a many of you have completed the game, we would like to take the opportunity and ask some questions related to the Ending and the story as a whole.

Here goes:

1) When entering the Orb Room (where Alexander is), what where your feelings toward Daniel (ie yourself), Alexander and Agrippa.

2) What was the ending that you got the first time? Was this a choice?

3) How did you like the ending?

4) Did you get any other endings? If so, which one was your favorite? And what where your motivation for seeing more endings?

1. Toward which of Daniel's? The 1st or the second one? The 1st one is a lost man, I feel sorry for him. No one wants to die, especially in his case - the unknown death. Will it be quick? Or the shadow is gonna torture his soul/body within hundred years or so? Or will it turn him into part of an Orb, restless and mad soul?
About Alexander... well, even consider the fact he wanted to find his beloved who he lost once, he did many terrible things on purpose. No excuses, GUILTY.
And Agrippa... well, weird character, he don't really play so big role in the Daniel's/Alexander conflict. Some kind of a guy who I can help (since we are in the same train).

2. Agrippa's one. Somehow I kinda knew (no-no, no youtube) how it will end up, so, yes, a choice.

3. I dislike it. It is not even worth to be called as an ending. Why should we guess what happened, especially in case when you did put 3 different endings (for people who dislike the linear one)? Makes no sense. Some narrative with static pictures would be nice.

4. Yes, I've got 3 of them. The favorite one is "Revenge", since it looked like proper ending compare to others "3secs puff and titles". I'd choose the Agrippa's one if it was more longer and had ab it more sense.
Motivation - interest.

[serotonin]

I tossed Agrippa's head into the portal when I realized going in myself (with Agrippa) wasn't an option, and thus got that ending.

I also realized as a matter of course that I shouldn't push the pedestals over, since it was clear they were needed to open the portal. Making sure Agrippa got in there first was my primary goal, and, of course, that ended up determining what ending I received.


As for my motivations, as the player-character...

At that point in the story, playing as present-self Daniel and realizing what evils and self-delusions former-self Daniel was guilty of, I no longer cared all that much about Alexander -- he had ceased to be the focus of my player-character's angst. Sure, Alexander was obviously amoral and monstrous in his destructive use of human life, but at that point I was chiefly concerned with Daniel's own guilt.

As such, granting Agrippa salvation was what I wanted to most make sure I achieved, as a small means of atonement for the horrors Daniel had done. That was a higher priority than destroying Alexander, and if it meant Daniel would forgo the opportunity to save himself, so be it.

But just to clarify... if there had been an ending in which Daniel could have deliberately sent Agrippa into the portal, then deliberately destroyed Alexander, and then saved himself from the Shadow, in that order of precedence, I would have taken it. But I was prepared to accept less than that, according to my priorities.

[superluser]

Now that a many of you have completed the game, we would like to take the opportunity and ask some questions related to the Ending and the story as a whole.

Here goes:

1) When entering the Orb Room (where Alexander is), what where your feelings toward Daniel (ie yourself), Alexander and Agrippa.

2) What was the ending that you got the first time? Was this a choice?

3) How did you like the ending?

4) Did you get any other endings? If so, which one was your favorite? And what where your motivation for seeing more endings?

I haven't read any of the replies yet, so this is raw and uninfluenced. I may add an addendum when I read the thread.

1.) I had separate feelings for the protagonist and for Daniel (which is who the protagonist was before the potion). I connected very strongly with the protagonist. Daniel was someone that I felt a strong sense of pity for. He was someone who had been duped (and who knows, possibly drugged, brainwashed, enchanted) into doing very evil things. He may or may not have been profoundly evil, and while he is--or rather was--me, I do not have his memories, so I have no right to judge what he did.

My interpretation was that Daniel had come to the conclusion that he could no longer do the right thing--even if he were to do what he ordered the protagonist to do, the circumstances surrounding the act would be different. He would be doing it for revenge instead of attempting to stop an evil man. So that put Daniel in a positive light. He was trying to do what was right, and trying to recapture the innocence that had been stolen from him. (it occurs to me now that Daniel might have been a bad man all along, even before he met Alexander, so innocence might not apply. We do not know. All we have are Daniel's own words, and the words of the man who convinced him to commit murders.)

2.) The first ending was the bad ending, where I waited for the portal to open fully, and by then it was too late, the portal was already open and I couldn't use Agrippa's head. It was not intentional, needless to say. I later looked in a walkthrough to make sure I did everything right at the end.

3.) The ending was a little too fast, and it didn't allow me to really get a sense of conclusion to the game. I am reminded of A Winner is You.

4.) I got the other ending, as well as the ending in the prison cell after consulting a walkthrough. The good ending felt a little like a tacked on happy ending; it did not seem to fit with the mood of the game. The issue for me was that most of the game was a sort of indirect show, don't tell. It seemed to me like the game was telling me that everything was going to be OK, and that's what Alexander had told Daniel (I originally wrote me here, not Daniel. Perhaps that means that I identified with Daniel by the end, and I did not identify with the protagonist at the point where Daniel was giving me directions--see above where I refer to Daniel giving orders to the protagonist, not me).

[Jinix]

I did not like Daniel so could care less about his ending.
Alexander was cool and friendly and sounded like Vincent Price.
Agrippa was so happy and gay where he was I hated to 'free' him and spoil his happy chit chat.
At the end I let Alexander do what he had so carefully planned to do for hundreds of years and go visit his lover.
I don't think I have ever enjoyed a RPG's ending, probably because it's just that... The End.
Fortunately with the provided editor Amnesia can on on and on so it's only... The Beginning

[Bulbatron]

"1) When entering the Orb Room (where Alexander is), what where your feelings toward Daniel (ie yourself), Alexander and Agrippa?"

I felt pity for Daniel, but he's a grown man and should know the difference between right and wrong. I suppose if you're going to die by something quantifiable, like say, a bullet to the brain, then you can say, 'right, I am/am not prepared to die that way', but the shadow is something completely unknown, and who knows if being consumed by it necessarily would have meant death, maybe a worse fate would have been in store, and ultimately, it was not death as such that Daniel was trying to day, but his entry into the unknown. I hope that made sense!

I mean, if somebody said to you, 'right, you must kill 20 innocent people to stop this axe-murderer from killing you', then you can say 'no, I'd rather die than cause the death of those innocents', but if that same person said to you 'right, you must kill 20 innocent people to stop the shadow from devouring you', then you might not be so quick to sacrifice yourself. You'd want to know what being devoured by the shadow would actually mean.

These feeling are probably what drove Daniel. The fear of the unknown.

Alexander was just an evil bastard. The very best thing I could say about him was that he was amoral. But finding out what he did to the animals made me want to kill him.

I'm still not quite sure what Agripa's role was, but I did as he wanted and made the tonic for him, just to end his suffering in the torture area.

"2) What was the ending that you got the first time? Was this a choice?"

The first ending I got was being devoured by the shadow, because at first I was too stupid to work out how to escape from the prison cell. In the end, I used the hammer and chisel, but I'd love to know how other people did it.

When I got to the orb room, stupidity was once again my undoing and I had another terrible appointment with the creeping shadow!

Next, I got the ending with Agripa's head. I didn't really know what else to do until I noticed my hand icon over the portal. Out of what I was carrying, the head seemed to be the most significant.

Lastly I saw the hand icons over the pylons, so tipping them over was an obvious move from there.

"3) How did you like the ending?"

The revenge ending I think made the most sense. The bad ending in the orb room was a bit lame because I'd already experienced it in the cell. The ending with Agripa was short, but interesting. Out of the Agripa ending and the ending where I knocked over the pylons, I'm not quite sure which one is supposed to be the 'good' ending.

"4) Did you get any other endings? If so, which one was your favorite? And what where your motivation for seeing more endings?"

Oh well, I've pretty much answered this one. I just reloaded the orb room so I could see the ending with Agripa's head and then again for the ending in which I had to knock over the pylons.

[udm]

1) I like the gradual bridging of events in Daniel's life, so it was very interesting for me by the end of the game, that Daniel turned out to be such a monster. I was torn between a like-hate relationship with Daniel. On one hand, he was a victim of circumstances, allowing himself to be manipulated. On the other hand, it wasn't as if he was completely unaware of his own doings. I believe that was also partially why he drank the Amnesia potion - to wash away the guilt.

Towards Alexander, I'm still not quite sure of his agenda. I thought that those intermittent messages where you interacted with this strange cylindrical object expressed the thoughts of Alexander (the "When can I see my love..." messages), but I'm not too sure about that.

As for Agrippa...well it's hard to tell, really. One can tell he is a self-serving person, from his notes to Johann. OTOH, he really didn't do anything to harm Daniel...

2) No it wasn't a choice. I wanted to tip the pylons over, but I didn't know how to. It didn't occur to me that it involved physics interaction. I just kept clicking on the pylons, which of course didn't fall. I just watched through to the end until the shadow consumed me.

3) I think all 3 endings are brilliant. The best, of course, is the canonical one, where Daniel escapes Brennenburg. The music felt really soothing and warming, evoking the feeling of not just you escaping the horrors, but having paid your due to the victims too.

4) Uh ok I think I just answered this question above lol.

[darkpast]

1) I have mixed feelings about Daniel. I don't blame the Algeria and London deaths on him, since he had no idea that the first three would happen, and later he thought the monster could be stopped. While he did murder and torture people to save himself, he did not at first know they were innocent (and don't forget this game was set in a time when the death penalty was much more common). He was slowly and calculatedly manipulated by Alexander into doing those things. I mean, why else did Alexander lie to him about the prisoners? Of course, that does not free Daniel of guilt, and I'm not sure if he truly redeems himself in the end. On the other hand, I have absolutely no doubt he is not as evil as Alexander, so allowing him to use the portal is without doubt the worst ending.

In the end, Daniel is all too human, and I think it's a rare person who wouldn't do the same if they were put in his place.

Alexander is utterly immoral and selfish - to the point of being a psychopath I would say. Yes, he does want to be with his love, and helps Alexander, but he does it for exclusively selfish reasons. He makes a habit of offering people power or salvation, and discarding them when they're no longer useful to him (he did this first to Wilhelm and then Daniel). He does not care that human blood and suffering are needed for his experiments - he first tries to use animals because they are "less of a hassle to acquire", not because of any moral concerns. Likewise, he keeps Agrippa alive only because he is useful to him - only him. He removes Agrippa's jaw to underline that point (so Agrippa can't talk to others). He will do everything in his power to emotionally manipulate people and turn them against themselves: he tries to convince Daniel they two are the same (obviously false, since Daniel never tricked anyone into doing his dirty work). When actually threatened, Alexander's facade breaks and he becomes aggressive.

Unfortunately, I didn't learn enough about Agrippa to form an opinion about him. He seems nice enough, probably the best person of the three, though there are some hints that he might have done things for entirely selfish reasons. Still, I think he wised up during his century-long suffering, and atoned for any crime he might have had. Ultimately, I felt Agrippa is a minor character, and he isn't so important himself; he is there more to define Daniel. That is, he is a chance for Daniel to do a truly altruistic act - putting his life on line to save a broken old man.

2)The Agrippa ending. Yes, I followed his instructions, though I got worried because the portal took a long time to open... made me nervous, but that's a good thing.

3) It was a bit disappointing - mainly because it was too short.

4) Yes, I got all of them. The Alexander ending is really anticlimactic, but that's just what I expected, so no complaints. The revenge ending is the best, it actually feels like a proper ending. Daniel sounds very self-righteous there, but again that's expected.
My motivation was simply curiosity.

[superluser]

Now that a many of you have completed the game, we would like to take the opportunity and ask some questions related to the Ending and the story as a whole.

Here goes:

1) When entering the Orb Room (where Alexander is), what where your feelings toward Daniel (ie yourself), Alexander and Agrippa.

2) What was the ending that you got the first time? Was this a choice?

3) How did you like the ending?

4) Did you get any other endings? If so, which one was your favorite? And what where your motivation for seeing more endings?

I haven't read any of the replies yet, so this is raw and uninfluenced. I may add an addendum when I read the thread.

Having read the thread and listened to the commentary, here's the addendum.

4.) Oh? There was a third ending in the orb room? The Revenge Ending? Let's try that. ... Hated it. I had cast the whole scenario as Daniel trying to stop Alexander and not wanting to do this as an act of revenge, which he would do if he had his memories of the event. So, naturally, the revenge ending was not a favorite of mine, because it implies that the protagonist loses and (the sadistic version of) Daniel wins. There has been no redemption. When I played it through again with commentary, I got the Agrippa ending, because it's the only version that makes sense once you get to the Orb Chamber. At least you stop Alexander and someone gets something they wanted. The other options were (1) everybody dies and nobody gets what they want or (2) don't stop Alexander--which I can do perfectly well without entering the Orb Chamber.

1.) It seems I left out the bits about my feelings on Agrippa and Alexander. Alexander seems rather like Grendel. Until the end, nobody know anything about him, except that he's old and can do magic.

The sheer numbers of deaths were implausible, and tended to make the whole thing seem rather less of something I could empathize with. The entire population of Saxony (probably the most likely place to see both an Altstadt--old saxon and a Brennenberg--old high german) in 1900 was less than 3 million. One man is described as having brought over 100 men to Castle Brennenberg. And we know that besides that one man, there was also Daniel doing the same thing. How many people did Brennenberg abduct? Someone was sure to notice a 33 per 100000 homicide rate. That's about the murder rate in South Africa. If that happened in rural Prussia in the 19th century, an army would have been sent out. Before someone mentions Vlad the Impaler, note that (A) he had an army (B) he was fighting an invading army and © those numbers were written by a guy who wanted him to seem very violent.

The number of murders reminds me of Eddie Izzard's quote about mass murderers:

Pol Pot killed 1.7 million people. We can't even deal with that! You know, we think if somebody kills someone, that's murder, you go to prison. You kill 10 people, you go to Texas, they hit you with a brick, that's what they do. 20 people, you go to a hospital, they look through a small window at you forever. And over that, we can't deal with it, you know? Someone's killed 100,000 people. We're almost going, "Well done! You killed 100,000 people? You must get up very early in the morning. I can't even get down the gym! Your diary must look odd: “Get up in the morning, death, death, death, death, death, death, death – lunch- death, death, death -afternoon tea - death, death, death - quick shower…"

I would have preferred Alexander's number of victims in this century to be much smaller--somewhere around 14. Then, you have enough for each torture device to be used twice, with two left over to make you wonder. Then, you could have a personal connection to each of those victims. After all, you want to get the schreckstoff (look it up) from them, which you can't get when they're dead. No sense in killing the goose that lays the golden egg.

So I don't know what to make of Alexander. As Izzard puts it, I can't even deal with that.

Agrippa I have no clue. He was very good at passive manipulation. Alexander having been very heavy handed, he must have known that you would go out of your way to help someone who said, ``Save me or don't. It's your choice.'' I don't know what Agrippa was, but at least he was able to have something he wanted happen to him.

[Voker57]

2) I killed Alexander, because I couldn't figure out what to do with Agrippa's head.

3) I got all the endings, including being devoured by Shadow in prison cell, my favourite is Agrippa's. My motivation? Experiencing more stuff!