A little request to developers on endings

[hollowleviathan]

You have to successfully concoct the potion in order to unlock one of the endings in the Inner Sanctum, so not all of the endings are decided by actions in the last room.

Also, taking a step backwards, a person playing the game immersed in the story and conjoined with Daniel, is building their character and story the entire game, culminating in the moment when they decide what they must do in the final room. It's not supposed to be a decision made in isolation, but, to borrow a phrase, the exclamation point to everything that had come before.

[anthonydraco]

Indeed not. Not everything is about last minute decision. But a many people know enough to do things just to be on the safe side, especially seasoned gamers. I think not a few end up mixing the potion anyway and decide what to do with it later. The game even leave the choice of using the key item you obtained until the last minute. That leaves room for players to make the last minute decision to throw items into the right place. And that choice alone affects the outcome. Faravid's trying to suggest a choice that make an irreversible turn somewhere in the middle of the game, and whatever follows, including the endings are consequential. A choice that you have to go back to the middle of the game then play it again from there to change, instead of loading the last save to change.

Also, the choices in this game are clearly visible - figuratively. Throw it in or not. Mix it or not. It's not that subtle. No offense.

I'll give a little example from another game to make my point. Silent Hill 2. There are six endings, IIRC, and each of them truly takes what you do throughout the game into account. If you treat yourself well, don't dwell in your past, and stay healthy throughout the game, you get an ending that represents moving on. If you treat yourself badly, heal little, take lots of damage, look at suicidal stuff, you end up doing bad things on yourself in the end. If you interact well with a character that represents your past, listen to her, protect her, take her suggestions, stay with her, even not bumping into her throughout the game, you end up with her. Each factor that affects the ending is very small, unseen, and many are truly affected by your unconscious decision, or close enough. More importantly, all factors are collected throughout the game and can only be changed significantly by almost starting over. Factors that prevents last minute decisions. That's what he's talking about. And that adds a very, very great replay value.

Justine is also a great example for the choices that affect the game. Save how many, and whom. The choices are still a bit obvious, though, but at least you can't just load the last save to change those factors. (If you could save.)

An upside of getting all endings easily is that it's easy. Me like that. I don't have to go through all that again to get them all. But that means beating the game only once and then... 'Now what?'

Edit: I'm not saying that the game has to be this way. I wouldn't mind an ending like Penumbra: Black Plague. But if it's multiple endings, Faravid's suggestion is a good idea, and I was just trying to clarify it.

[Statyk]

I agree with Tanshaydar, and I've always had the same feeling. Endings are meant to END a story, not blow it up. I think that's why CoD is so popular for crying out loud. Their story sucks, yet people buy it because every turn there's another explosion. I understand visuals are nice, but a story tells better than lasers and explosions. The way Amnesia and the Penumbras ended were satisfying to me, actually leaving me with a smile.

So long as you paid attention to the story the whole way through...

I understand your point in saying it was "lacking" in the visual department... But did the scenarios in the endings CALL for such actions? No... For example, *SPOILER*, when Daniel is leaving the castle at the end (at least, that's what I got), the castle had no reason to fall. Daniel had no reason to blow up the place. His "mission" was complete, Alexander was dead, and he was free. The glow of the outside was the perfect way to end it. It SHOWED he was FREE. What else was needed? Nothing... It was the ending and I was completely satisfied.

[hollowleviathan]

Another point is that not every ending, and indeed not every story, is intended to give you a warm toasty feeling. Sometimes it's the intent of the storyteller/gamemaker to leave you with empty expectations or even a sallow disappointment, because that's how the story went. Just in real life, not every story ends cinematically, with a hero living happily ever after the showdown with a powerful evil something. Sometimes you strike down an old man and wonder how you got to that point.

I'm not sure how much Frictional was thinking of the replayability of the game, but all of your complaints about the shallowness of the choices made to pick the ending are premised on the fact that it's a game. Maybe it was a crutch that Frictional needs to eschew, but if the player is truly immersed in the game, all choices made are final. You can't go back and finish the potion once you're in the Inner Sanctum, you can't go back and not kill Alexander. These are outside of the realm of the story being told.

[anthonydraco]

HL, I agree with your first sentence. But saying "Because that's how the story went" is pretty much another way of saying "Because that's how I/the author want it to be." It's a pretty thin justification. If you want to insist "making it like real life" and keep insisting "I'm gonna write the story however I want, no matter the disappointment, because it's the story/how I want it to be" that's only one step from "I don't care about disappointment." And "disappointment" reflects sells of any product. Insist it's like life however you want, this is still a fiction. There is no real need to disappoint players with the ending. And if you want it real and show how disappointing life is, you can make us feel disappointed at their fate and not disappoint us. They're two different things. You could have given us a strong ending, and no disappointment. You can do that in the next game, if you want to. Though you don't have to.

Also, we can immerse ourselves like you said in the last paragraph, and I believe we all do, to an extent, but the fact remains that the game still leave room to exploit the last save to get another ending easily.

[hollowleviathan]

Agreed with everything you said. I just thought that Amnesia endings were about the unknown and/or disappointment, without being disappointing. Like some endings in

Spoiler below!

STALKER: SoC and Metro 2033.

If we disagree on that, then, well, that's just our opinions. For what it's worth, Frictional has a lot more time and financial cushion to make their next game, so could very well have more pizzazz.

[Tanshaydar]

@anthonydraco
How is that different you not wanting story to end that way from author wanting story to end that way? In this case, your justification is as thin as author's.

[anthonydraco]

I'm not sure where you don't get it. I'll try my best to cover all possible question I think you might have asked.

If you're saying that the "I"'s in the quotation marks refered to me, I was referring to the author. Anything in the quotation marks was supposed to be marked as 'If the author/developers want to say this...'

Or if you're asking what's difference between my opinion and the author. (I believe this is what you ask.) Say, if your 'current course of creating an ending/current ending' satisfied like 8 players. Supposed that what a few players wish here can make you satisfied a few more, like 1 or 2 more, would you humor those wishes? End result is that you sell the game to players, not to yourselves. Anything you do well affect your sales. If you're asking if our wishes is better than yours, then I must honestly say that I don't know. Not without conducting a research/survey. Who really does? But I think that what we suggested here are based on the premise that you could cover our wishes too and the game would've satisfied a few more of us/a few of us more if you do, not on the premise that what we say is better. It's up to you to decide to cover us or not, and it's up to you to do it while not losing those who already like your current course of decision.

[Acies]

I believe the endings were perhaps not as grandiose or satisfying as one would like. The game created a lot of questions while playing it, and not many was answered at the end. That is however the beauty of it!

By leaving a lot of things unanswered and hinting on further information they allow each player to fill in the gaps by himself/herself; through imagination. I would argue that the imagination of the player, if stimulated, is an even greater tool for story-telling than explicitly telling every part which could possibly be told. Keeping the endings open to interpretation goes in line with the story-telling of the whole game, mainly enriching the story by allowing for the user to create a whole universe/world based on by bits and pieces and extending upon them. That's at least what I did when I played Amnesia.

That is why I find the custom "story-continuations" of Amnesia to lesser liking, since I'm basically playing someone else's interpretation of Amnesia - and the two worlds won't "add together".

I've previously read some entries on their developer's blog. It's quite interesting as it tells their view of story-telling.

[Tanshaydar]

I asked about differences between your opinion and the author.
You can't guarantee that covering a few more wishes will still keep the already satisfied wishes. You merely want your very own ending to be implemented instead of what creator had in mind and already satisfied many.

I'm not talking only about Amnesia, but I'm talking generally. And as a side not, I'm not a Frictional Games employee, I'm just a mod.