difficulty

[RawkBandMan]

Considering the pace of the game, while speed runs are possible, generally adding a timer to artificially make this a little more tense really wouldn't work either.

I agree with this. Anyone read up on the beta of Luigi's Mansion before? You had something like, 12 in game hours or something to complete the game, or else Luigi would turn into a ghost and you'd have to restart the game or something. Beta testers found it too difficult to complete the game on the first try, so they canned it and made it what it is today.

Basically what I'm saying is, if it didn't work in a kids game, it won't work in A Machine For Pigs (Especially since A Machine For Pigs will probably be longer than Luigi's Mansion)

[the dark side]

i quess i am being a ltittle naieve, remember, although i am eperienced with horror themed shooter (Blood, Doom, Quake, Etc), and Survival horror (Early resident evil (up to Resi 4), classic silent hill (1 2 and 3) etc) im only recent to pure horror... perhaps i need to get some of the old Point and Click horror advantures that inspired Frictional..

as for how a hard mode could be, in my opinion, i say, Increase the speed of the sanity drain, kayo the health regeneration, limit the amoint of laudanum you can carry to half, make laudanum extremly rare to find, and make the lantern burn twice as fast.

why do i want super hard mode?

easy, to me, penumbra and amnesia are very. very good games, great storylines, properly scary, intelligent puzzles, suprisingly good graphics for kickstarter,. etc, in fact they come very close to masterpeice, but, as a died in the wool gamer with memories of Eight Bit, i feel challenge is vital for a game if it is to become a masterpeice, and that is the problem with frictionals games, they lack that last, vital layer of challenge, they come so close to masterpeice it causes physical pain! but, they can never be masterpeices without more challenge. come on, how hard would it be to programme an Optional "super hard" that unlockes when the game has been clocked on standard mode that Kayos the health regen, halves the laudanum, and ups the sanity drain and fuel burn on the lantern. then frictionals games would have the challenge required to become masterpeices, without ruining it for those who dont want a challenge and just want the story as the "challenging" mode is a on completion optional bonus.

[Damascus Rose]

i quess i am being a ltittle naieve, remember, although i am eperienced with horror themed shooter (Blood, Doom, Quake, Etc), and Survival horror (Early resident evil (up to Resi 4), classic silent hill (1 2 and 3) etc) im only recent to pure horror... perhaps i need to get some of the old Point and Click horror advantures that inspired Frictional..

as for how a hard mode could be, in my opinion, i say, Increase the speed of the sanity drain, kayo the health regeneration, limit the amoint of laudanum you can carry to half, make laudanum extremly rare to find, and make the lantern burn twice as fast.

why do i want super hard mode?

easy, to me, penumbra and amnesia are very. very good games, great storylines, properly scary, intelligent puzzles, suprisingly good graphics for kickstarter,. etc, in fact they come very close to masterpeice, but, as a died in the wool gamer with memories of Eight Bit, i feel challenge is vital for a game if it is to become a masterpeice, and that is the problem with frictionals games, they lack that last, vital layer of challenge, they come so close to masterpeice it causes physical pain! but, they can never be masterpeices without more challenge. come on, how hard would it be to programme an Optional "super hard" that unlockes when the game has been clocked on standard mode that Kayos the health regen, halves the laudanum, and ups the sanity drain and fuel burn on the lantern. then frictionals games would have the challenge required to become masterpeices, without ruining it for those who dont want a challenge and just want the story as the "challenging" mode is a on completion optional bonus.

It seems no matter how many times people explain why amnesia is not meant as a challenge and therefore a 'super hard' mode is utterly out of place and pointless, you still have your mind set on amnesia somehow requiring this 'challenge' aspect. This kind of game mode simply does not belong in an amnesia game and never will. I'm not being close minded, I'm just saying it how it is. There's a reason they canned the difficulty settings from penumbra. If you want a challenge, play another game, you won't get what you want out of amnesia.

Honestly, the requirements you have for a game to be a masterpiece are very outdated and do not fit with this genre. Challenge does not create a masterpiece.

[the dark side]

ok, so, challenge isnt what the games are about. so, what are they about?, if challenge isnt an acceptable facet in the Horror adventure genre, then what on earth is? explain to me please, in simple terms, remember, Pure horror adventure is rather new to me. its clear that if i want to fit in better here, i need to re-ajust my opinion on masterpeice for the particular genre frictionals games are in. (bare in mind however, i refuse to change the goalposts in any other genre!)

i wouldnt say my opinions on what makes a masterpeice are "outdated" as such, just "old fashioned," because they are Still relevant, sure, challenging games are very, very rare in the current COD-clone, GOW clone, and Burnout clone Flooded HD console lead market, but thats because gaming has once again become obsessed with sales quantity over game quality and is chasing the lowest common denominator, instead of balancing Sustainable Sales with Ultra High Quality, a strategy that will result in another, sadly much needed, industry crash, seeing as the exact same strategy is what killed atari way back when (do people not learn from there mistakes?) bringing old fashioned gaming back to the forefront, i say its not "outdated" because, they still do make the odd challenging game sometimes, its just they are not mainstream at the moment. it will only be "outdated" when they stop making challenging games entirely, and when that happens, then there will be not point in even making games as far as i am concerned. and that may not happen thankfully, as ive noticed games with throwback gameplay are starting to get popular again. even amnesia and penumbra apply to the "throwback" ressurection actually, as they do throw back to the old Point and Click era in some ways.

just dont forget, its apathy, or even hatred, towards challenge wich is what has given us call of duty and co and burnout and co, a system of "lowest common denominator" focussed "tutorials" that will destroy the games industry again, just like it did in '83.

perhaps it isnt welcome in horror adventure, and it is the wrong genre for challenge, fine. but, the apathy and hatred towards challenge in other genres has got to stop.
hmm, perhaps im just letting my hatred of over casual mainstream HD console "clone" crud boil over and cloud my judgement on frictionals products?

i wonder, could some people, myself, googolplex and the OP included, by accidently subconcioulsy applying "first person shooter" rules (hence the calls for more difficulty) to the games because of the free roaming first person gameplay, when we should really be applying "point and click adventure" (always about immersion) rules? if so, im sorry, my brain is easilly confused, so it stands a chance i have gone and accidently applied "FPS" rules when i should have applied "PNCA" rules instead....

[Damascus Rose]

You are asking me what horror games are about? The answer is simple. Horror games are about horror. Everything else comes after. And yes, if you believe that challenge is what makes any game a masterpiece, that is a very outdated notion. A lot of developers (indie mostly) are really getting away from normal game models and getting into more experimental and interesting ideas for games and how games should be. Take a look at Dear Esther, absolutely not perfect, but a masterpiece in its own right. Completely devoid of challenge, and it's become a cult indie hit. Amnesia is as well, very little gameplay but it's become famous for it's fear, it is not challenge-focused at all. These kinds of games are really setting examples in the game market today that a lot of developers are picking up on. I'm not saying challenge is a bad thing, it's absolutely necessary and required for some games, but they are different types of games.

I have no idea most of what you're talking about with the current market but honestly, who gives a shit about those games. People can play them, obsess over them, and buy them over and over even though they may be just clones, and it just doesn't matter. They can do w/e the fuck they want and whether you think the games are bad overrated or not, you do not have to play them. This is why I love the indie game scene, good innovative games that interest me. Why worry about triple A games when you can play indie.

Also, games 'helping' the player doesn't make them bad. Frustration is common in gaming and developers are trying to find ways to counteract that. Maybe you hate it, but it's a small percentage of gamers that play games only to get frustrated.

[Froge]

Dark Side can you please capitalize?

[HateSolstice]

Wanting a difficult or challenge isn't a bad thing, Damascus. And offering such an option wouldn't hurt the game any. I just don't see how it would work. As Dark Side suggested, increased sanity drain and nixed health regen would be a good start, but I don't really think that would increase difficulty all that much considering you can get through the game without ever actually increasing your sanity level, and it's hard enough to get killed unless you're a bumbling moron.

I dunno, I just don't see a challenge mode working in a horror-adventure game like this.

[Damascus Rose]

Nowhere did I say it was a bad thing. What I was saying is that it would be misplaced in Amnesia.

[the dark side]

I see that as well now actually, Amnesia and penumbra are completly the wrong genre for ultra challenge.

i originally wanted them, because i made the foolish mistake of accidently applying "rules of FPS" to the game, seeing as it has full free form first person movement, when i should have applied "point and click" rules. how did i come to this realiseation? , easy, i cracked out my old win 98 laptop and played a couple of old point and clicks, the similaraties to Amnesia and Penumbra are numerous, to the point amnesia and penumbra are really point and click games with free roam. im enjoying the games a lot more now ive played a few point and clicks and have re-ajusted to that genres rules, were the challenge comes from Feindish puzzle design and its impossible to die unless you are very, very rusty (like me)

indeed, an ultra challenging mode is needed in a lot of games these days, many games these days are no more than "tutorials" in Single player mode, and its rather pathetic, but, yeah, Amensia and Penumbra cant have them, as they are essentially a modern day version of the old point and click adventure games, like "the Last Resort", "Broken Sword" "Monkey Island", ETC and ultra challening mode doesnt work in that genre as indeed, they arent about gameplay, they are about story and puzzle solving.

PS. @Damascus Rose didnt play "dear esther" i am afraid, have seen bits on youtube, may give it a go, may not, its a very interesting idea, a gameplayless "story", and i could listen to Nigel Carrington all day. i love his voice! also, i really want to support the indie industry, hence why i purchased frictionals games off steam, as well, when the games crash comes, all the big AAA "sausage mincer" companies like EA and Activision are going to get annhilated because they wont be able to adapt to the sudden loss of the "mainstream AAA" market, and it will be the little indies like The Chinese Room and Frictional games that will grow to replace them along with the few current publishers (bethesoft, valve, enix and take 2 will survive as they can change back to the "old school" market with no issue as they still make old school games from time to time)who can adapt quick enough to survive, to become the giants of the post crash second golden era of gaming.