Time?

**Statyk** · 10-06-2012, 03:40 AM

(10-06-2012, 03:37 AM)Your Computer Wrote: Whether there exists an omniscient being or not, you cannot change the future. Simply perceiving or predetermining the future and then diverting from that thought does not affect the future in anyway. You can't change what doesn't yet exist; and when it comes to pass it has already become history.

I think we share the same opinion. Are you saying that no matter what, a future is already determined? I'm atheist, but I believe in this. Scraper said yes, you can choose to go down the right road, or you could choose to take the oncoming. But doesn't that still mean in this "path of the future", you were SUPPOSED to take the oncoming? you thought you made the decision, but it was already planned. In this case, unless you know of the future (which no one does), you do not change your course. It IS predetermined.

**Yuhaney** · 10-06-2012, 03:42 AM

Even IF it is planned, who made that plan?

**Statyk** · 10-06-2012, 03:44 AM

I'm atheist, but I'm not going to say it's not god. So I'm just going to say Life.

**failedALIAS** · 10-06-2012, 03:48 AM

There is no plan! What he's saying is that the future is nothing more than what hasn't yet come to pass. The past is just what HAS happened, with that the future has no importance besides the concept of tomorrow.

**Kreekakon** · 10-06-2012, 03:48 AM

(10-06-2012, 03:42 AM)Scraper Wrote: Even IF it is planned, who made that plan?

If it is like that, I'd probably assume it's the laws of dimensions/time, something similar to the laws of physics.

**Adny** · 10-06-2012, 03:55 AM

Our actions increase the likelihood of certain events happening in the future; there are some outcomes that could be considered absolute, and others speculation. Example:

If I kill someone, it is absolute that (s)he will cease to exist (absolute), it is also very likely I will go to jail or also be killed (speculation).

Nothing's predetermined; there are an infinite amount of variables that can spontaneously change as we go through our lives (multiverse theory?). I guess what I'm saying is that we can't change something that doesn't exist (as YC already pointed out) but we do have a significant impact on it.

**Your Computer** · 10-06-2012, 03:58 AM

(10-06-2012, 03:40 AM)Statyk Wrote: I think we share the same opinion. Are you saying that no matter what, a future is already determined? I'm atheist, but I believe in this. Scraper said yes, you can choose to go down the right road, or you could choose to take the oncoming. But doesn't that still mean in this "path of the future", you were SUPPOSED to take the oncoming? you thought you made the decision, but it was already planned. In this case, unless you know of the future (which no one does), you do not change your course. It IS predetermined.

If (pre)determined means knowing, then yes; otherwise i would have to deny my perception of God. However, concerning human action, there are no if statements for those within this dimension of time. Simply making a decision does not in itself change the future. There is no way to "trick" the future. The result is simply what comes to pass. In an atheistic point of view, you can deny foreknowledge and the same conclusions would follow.

**Yuhaney** · 10-06-2012, 04:00 AM

(10-06-2012, 03:48 AM)failedALIAS Wrote: There is no plan!

I was meaning the same thing. Maybe I should have used the already used word 'determined' instead...

**Danny Boy** · 10-06-2012, 05:41 AM

I believe in destiny. but not in the usual way though.

Imagine the Universe was just a flat plane. where there were a couple of snooker balls arranged in that familiar triangle shape.

now Imagine a new ball. on a determined collision course whit the arranged snooker balls. on a specific velocity and angle.

as the snooker balls spread out due to the initial interaction whit the new spawned ball. we will see they will have new apparently random locations.

but if we now rearrange everything so that every ball is back to their original positions. and than again we trow the "new" ball exactly the same way we did before. we will see that every ball will move exactly to the same place as they did on the first experiment. we can try this over and over again and the result will always be the same.

our universe is basically this on a much larger scale

The universe and its laws of physics can give us precise methods on how to simulate the universe itself. the laws, mathematical equations have all been "resolved" exactly when they first appeared on the zero second of the universe's existence. therefore the universe can be predicted (but it would need an enormous scale of computing power, for it would need to simulate every single particle there is). this also applies to the human mind for it is nothing more than electrons moving from one neuron to another. so in a way we do not have free will per say. we have the illusion of having it.

**BAndrew** · 10-06-2012, 08:31 AM

Well these are very interesting points, but my question was "Does time flow? Yes,No and why." and not "Is the future predetermined or not?". However, I am going to tell my opinion about this. I believe that the universe is chaotic and that means it is more than capable of being unpredictable. The future doesn't exist. It just will happen. No one knows what the future holds(God is an exception if you are relegious I will come here later). Simple mathematical equations(the most simple you can think of) with nothing random in them can have outcomes that are entirely unpredictable(eg z = z² + c). Considering this, the universe doesn't need to be predetermined.

About God for relegious: God gave humans free choice which means future is not predetermined. What happens though it that he/she/it(?) has access to all the dimensions at once. Think of you. You are a 3D being and you can see EVERYTHING on a 2D surface(paper). A 4D being would see everything in a 3D surface(inside buildings,human bodies etc.). Now an infinite dimensional being like god would have access to all dimensions. Therefore he can "see" all the "times" or "time moments" at once.