[SPOILER] Plot Discussion Thread *Spoiler Alert*

[VaeVictis]

Thanks for posting that!
I've been wondering lately, just out of morbid curiosity: how many of us, if we knew for certain that the Machine would prevent the atrocities of the 20th century, would allow it continue its work?
I'd like to think I'd take a gamble on humanity (to my inevitable disappointment), but I honestly can't be certain I'd stop the Machine...

[Alardem]

Thanks for posting that!
I've been wondering lately, just out of morbid curiosity: how many of us, if we knew for certain that the Machine would prevent the atrocities of the 20th century, would allow it continue its work?
I'd like to think I'd take a gamble on humanity (to my inevitable disappointment), but I honestly can't be certain I'd stop the Machine...

A world born from the mass slaughter of innocents is probably not one worth living in. But I'd still find the Machine more admirable than Mandus, who gets cold feet and destroys his creation out of a selfish desire for redemption.

Kind of parallels between Alexander and Daniel's motivations.

[VaeVictis]

Thanks for posting that!
I've been wondering lately, just out of morbid curiosity: how many of us, if we knew for certain that the Machine would prevent the atrocities of the 20th century, would allow it continue its work?
I'd like to think I'd take a gamble on humanity (to my inevitable disappointment), but I honestly can't be certain I'd stop the Machine...

A world born from the mass slaughter of innocents is probably not one worth living in. But I'd still find the Machine more admirable than Mandus, who gets cold feet and destroys his creation out of a selfish desire for redemption.

Kind of parallels between Alexander and Daniel's motivations.

Agreed, exchanging one atrocity for another is a sure sign of a broken world. But, given the knowledge and capabilities of preventing it, who would use it?

[Fortigurn]

The Machine: imma stop future genocide by making people into meat pies.
Mandus: Seems legit.

Seriously? He was a complete halfwit.

[VaeVictis]

The Machine: imma stop future genocide by making people into meat pies.
Mandus: Seems legit.

Seriously? He was a complete halfwit.

But you're completely ignoring Mandus' motivation: his children. Not to mention the buildup to what leads him to build the Machine in the first place. I mean, it's fun to joke about, but ultimately it isn't that simple.

[Fortigurn]

But you're completely ignoring Mandus' motivation: his children. Not to mention the buildup to what leads him to build the Machine in the first place. I mean, it's fun to joke about, but ultimately it isn't that simple.

I'm not talking about his motivation to destroy the machine, I'm talking about his motivation for building in the first place. The idea that turning people into pies is somehow going to prevent future global conflict, is not especially rational.

[VaeVictis]

But you're completely ignoring Mandus' motivation: his children. Not to mention the buildup to what leads him to build the Machine in the first place. I mean, it's fun to joke about, but ultimately it isn't that simple.

I'm not talking about his motivation to destroy the machine, I'm talking about his motivation for building in the first place. The idea that turning people into pies is somehow going to prevent future global conflict, is not especially rational.

Yeah, he built the Machine in part to 'spare them the world and its loam.'
Rationality aside, he still really felt it was the best course of action open to him. I mean, he was going down the drain financially, and he saw the world doing likewise in a moral sense. It'd have made less sense if he did nothing but bemoan the state of the world and do nothing.
Yes, he wanted to 'clean the world', but it wasn't his sole motivation, he had his children in mind.

[WALP]

I struggle to comprehend how murdering the entire world and turning their dead bodies into manpigs will prevent future murdering throughout the world. do I even understand what the fuck that machine was doing?

[Fortigurn]

Yeah, he built the Machine in part to 'spare them the world and its loam.'
Rationality aside, he still really felt it was the best course of action open to him. I mean, he was going down the drain financially, and he saw the world doing likewise in a moral sense. It'd have made less sense if he did nothing but bemoan the state of the world and do nothing.
Yes, he wanted to 'clean the world', but it wasn't his sole motivation, he had his children in mind.

It would have made more sense if he didn't try to save his kids by killing them, them building a machine which turns people into pies. I mean honestly, there is no rational connection between what The Machine did, and what it was supposed to achieve.

I struggle to comprehend how murdering the entire world and turning their dead bodies into manpigs will prevent future murdering throughout the world. do I even understand what the fuck that machine was doing?

Well said; that is exactly my point.

[Alardem]

But you're completely ignoring Mandus' motivation: his children. Not to mention the buildup to what leads him to build the Machine in the first place. I mean, it's fun to joke about, but ultimately it isn't that simple.

I'm not talking about his motivation to destroy the machine, I'm talking about his motivation for building in the first place. The idea that turning people into pies is somehow going to prevent future global conflict, is not especially rational.

You're assuming he is completely rational. That he is not at all swayed by tragedy, otherworldly forces, or anything else compromising his judgment.

The Machine's a gigantic sacrificial altar, guys. It unto itself is nothing more than a conduit for a creation event - which, from what I understand, involves detonating the earth's core/"stone egg at the bottom of the world" with atomic flame and bringing about what is likely a hellish world in the ashes.

Disregarding that Mandus is effectively acting out a warped version of an Aztec creation myth, he is still a genocidal lunatic who hates everyone equally. The writer posits that such murderous behavior can never be rationalized. I disagree with him because the genocides of Armenia, Rwanda, Germany and many other horrors were motivated by hatred, not some utilitarian nonsense. Then again, I'd argue that Mandus is attempting to put a paternalistic face on his ultimately misanthropic motivation.

My take on the ending is that Mandus has already inadvertently changed history for the worse. He may have averted the Machine's attempt to ignite the earth's core, but the sheer scale of his slaughter makes me think he's already altered the state of London beyond what it was in our reality.

And the old bastard? He doesn't die. He gets to lie there, forgotten and rotting, and hear the world continue to suffer and embody everything he hates.