Spoiler Plot Discussion Thread *Spoiler Alert*

**Corbent** · 09-13-2013, 05:54 PM

(09-13-2013, 05:48 PM)grrrz Wrote:
(09-13-2013, 05:17 PM)Kotch Wrote: Can we also talk about the intro?

I'm very thrown off by the fact that you hear a voice say "Daddy, Daddy. Please don't kill me." But it's not his kids. It sounds like an older guy.

Anyone have thoughts on that?
Best explanation I can come up with is it's "the machine" speaking, as his other "evil" self, begging for mercy, when the first sabotage occurs (or maybe after the end). Also may be one of the pigs (but it's his voice I think).

I had exactly this theory at first but the voice does not match the voice that taunts you all over the game. I thought that since the children are connected to it, it could use their voice, but it doesn't match them either. So no idea.

**Integria** · 09-13-2013, 05:58 PM

Oh, come to think of it, there were two moments I wondered about, both through my first and second playthrough of the game. Both of them occur in roughly the same area, closer to the end of the game, and stand out to me.

1) The pig-mask that appears for a brief second, as you are climbing up a ladder.
2) Before or after this, there's a red cloud of particles, almost like a cloud of blood - it simply disappears as you get closer.

Anyone got a clue to either of these? They could just be intended for dramatic effect, I suppose. One-shots like that leave me curious, though.

**chineseroom** · 09-13-2013, 06:14 PM

Cut from an early version of the script:
"Shall I tell you the difference between a madman and a prophet, little Mandus? History. Everything else is as dull and busy as bluebottles on the lips of starveling."

**frictionalfan** · 09-13-2013, 07:02 PM

(09-13-2013, 05:58 PM)Integria Wrote: Oh, come to think of it, there were two moments I wondered about, both through my first and second playthrough of the game. Both of them occur in roughly the same area, closer to the end of the game, and stand out to me.

1) The pig-mask that appears for a brief second, as you are climbing up a ladder.
2) Before or after this, there's a red cloud of particles, almost like a cloud of blood - it simply disappears as you get closer.

Anyone got a clue to either of these? They could just be intended for dramatic effect, I suppose. One-shots like that leave me curious, though.

Yea they were def noticeable. Most ppl are saying it was just intended for dramatic effect, although that red cloud seems out of place whereas the pig mask is a recurring symbol throughout the game so it might mean something yet to be identified

**rotten** · 09-13-2013, 07:19 PM

(09-13-2013, 06:14 PM)chineseroom Wrote: Cut from an early version of the script:
"Shall I tell you the difference between a madman and a prophet, little Mandus? History. Everything else is as dull and busy as bluebottles on the lips of starveling."

So, the Machine/the Orb is god and Oswald is his prophet, huh

**cryptoshadow** · 09-13-2013, 07:47 PM

(09-13-2013, 05:58 PM)Integria Wrote: Oh, come to think of it, there were two moments I wondered about, both through my first and second playthrough of the game. Both of them occur in roughly the same area, closer to the end of the game, and stand out to me.

1) The pig-mask that appears for a brief second, as you are climbing up a ladder.
2) Before or after this, there's a red cloud of particles, almost like a cloud of blood - it simply disappears as you get closer.

Anyone got a clue to either of these? They could just be intended for dramatic effect, I suppose. One-shots like that leave me curious, though.

1) I think the pig mask suddenly appears there only for dramatic effect. I haven't noticed someting particular about it and I guess it was just there to surprise you.

By the way, there's a second pig mask that briefly appears in the game if I remember well. During the pigpocalypse in the streets of London, just before you take the elevator, you can crawl under some crates and there you can find toys. There's also a note (25th October 1899) and you can see a pig mask appear for a brief second just next to it before you can grab it.

2) If you watch closely, you can see Edwin (or Enoch, not sure) watching you on the other side of the walkway. He disappears in a red cloud of particles when you get closer, that's all.

**Integria** · 09-13-2013, 08:11 PM

I'm still not sure how sold I am on the idea of Mandus existing as two seperate entities at a time. It's a theory that solves a lot of the issues, but seems to raise more questions than it actually answers, and doesn't have much basis.

On my second playthrough, it seemed more like a raptured psyché. A duality within the same man.

So we each went our separate ways and one half built a machine instead, to hold his hate in and to keep his heart beating. And the other fell into a sleep, to blunt the pain. And then he had terrible dreams and when he awoke, the other had made ovens and killed and skinned and cooked all of those he held dear. And thus, holding onto his guts, he strode forth to find himself and make himself whole again.

It almost seemed as if it formed to seperate personalities, each unaware of the actions of the other, yet inhibiting the same physical form. One slept, the part of Mandus that simply wants to 'give up'.

The other takes action, makes himself a beast to avoid bearing the pain of being human. Judging from the journal entries, this seems to go on for quite a while - all the way up until you wake up in your bed.

At this point it seems that you are aligned with the other part of your psyché, only aware of the actions you have done through a haze. He strides back out to realize and remember what he has done, to make himself 'whole' again. To merge the polar sides of his split personality back together again.

I'm probably off, because I still can't align this with the ending.

**Corbent** · 09-13-2013, 08:21 PM

I was reading carefully the whole timeline Kein assembled (Thank you very much). And there's this one note that is very interesting and I feel it holds the answer to who is in the "Iron Lung". I'm not sure how, but I am sure it has to be Mandus himself and no one else.

The note:

Spoiler below!

This note talks about the separation of Good Mandus and Evil Mandus.

"So we each went our separate ways and one half built a machine instead, to hold his hate in and to keep his heart beating. And the other fell into a sleep, to blunt the pain."

From this I conclude two things: First the man in the iron lung (more like a cryogenic chamber to me) is one of the two "Manduses". Second, the third heart is Mandus' heart as well.

I have two possible theories:
1.- Mandus made the machine to contain his evil side, then he went into cryogenic sleep to numb the pain of his wrongdoings and guilt. In this theory the whole game is a comatose dream (making it so at the end you see yourself in the cryogenic chamber and the ending is just a symbol of rejoining both your good and evil side) and nothing really happened. This would also explain the temple setting in London which doesn't make much sense.

2.-Mandus physically divided in a mystical way (orb powers FTW), creating a sort of Doppleganger of himself which is pure evil. At some point good Mandus was able to subdue the evil Mandus, strap him to the chair in the ending chamber and took his heart out, then placing the corpse of evil Mandus in the cryogenic chamber. So the third heart would be from Evil Mandus. Evil Mandus' heart corrupts the machine and gains sentience, so the only way to repair the damage is for Good Mandus to replace the Evil Heart with his own heart, destroying the evil Mandus presence in the machine.

**Vertical** · 09-13-2013, 08:23 PM

(09-13-2013, 08:11 PM)Integria Wrote: The other takes action, makes himself a beast to avoid bearing the pain of being human. Judging from the journal entries, this seems to go on for quite a while - all the way up until you wake up in your bed.

I've totally forgotten about that.

The Dr's quote from the intro. Then Mandus saw a pig in himself for a lot longer. He couldn't take that he as a human pig would judge other human pigs. Thus he made himself one, he removed his heart and put it into the machine alongside the otherworldly orb/egg (the machine became alive).

Someone revived him then through the Compound X injection and Schumman's lamp. He could no longer consider himself a human, even though he still looked like one. It stripped him of the rest of his "moral brakes". After stunning the professor, he admitted "We're the pig. We are all the pig".

The question would then remain: who revived Mandus? The Machine? One of his loyal workers? Manpigs?

**rotten** · 09-13-2013, 08:44 PM

(09-13-2013, 08:21 PM)Corbent Wrote: I have two possible theories:

1.- Mandus made the machine to contain his evil side, then he went into cryogenic sleep to numb the pain of his wrongdoings and guilt. In this theory the whole game is a comatose dream (making it so at the end you see yourself in the cryogenic chamber and the ending is just a symbol of rejoining both your good and evil side) and nothing really happened. This would also explain the temple setting in London which doesn't make much sense.

2.-Mandus physically divided in a mystical way (orb powers FTW), creating a sort of Doppleganger of himself which is pure evil. At some point good Mandus was able to subdue the evil Mandus, strap him to the chair in the ending chamber and took his heart out, then placing the corpse of evil Mandus in the cryogenic chamber. So the third heart would be from Evil Mandus. Evil Mandus' heart corrupts the machine and gains sentience, so the only way to repair the damage is for Good Mandus to replace the Evil Heart with his own heart, destroying the evil Mandus presence in the machine.

Well that's a very good explanation, I do like it, except for the thought that the whole game was a dream, that would be baffling.
On the second version... Why did he keep his evil twin alive with his heart out?