Religion

[BAndrew]

And when they DON'T happen to believers... "God works in mysterious waaayyys WOOOOOO"

IDK, to me "I can't explain it, therefore god" seems to be a bit of a cop out. Because when we do find an answer that person stumbles a bit and then finds the next gap to cling on to.

+1

Totally agree.

Some quick examples:
The bible states that the Earth is flat. But oops science proved that it is round so let's change it. Well at least after calling it a heresy and punishing people who support this. I don't understand/ can't explain how gravity works. God does it. But again ooops Newton comes and explains how it works (at least on Earth ) so we need a backup plan. And that goes on and on just with slight variations to reflect the vocabulary of the day (see evolution, Big Bang etc).

[Nice]

I believe in it because I see it as the most plausible one among many, I dont expect faith to get me anywhere its just a personal thing. Also I like to think that our existence, the planet existence heck the whole existence of the world is more than just a side effect of some natural events.

Also keep in mind, that believing in God and following a religion (atleast in my case) does not mean that you just close yourself to everything new and dismiss things. I have always been fascinated by space, the universe, how things work, why they work the way they do and I also wonder what lies out there in space, heck my dream would be to take a trip and explore the galaxies.

^ point of this is just to let you know that even though I follow religion i'm open to everything.

anyways to stay on topic, I'm not going to be making out cases out of thin air because currently I cant recall of any specific one where an atheist witnesses a miracle and converts. Keyword - Specific. But if I remember correctly there was a book written about someone that converted to religion, he probably witnessed something otherwise he wouldnt write a whole book about it. Who knows, i'll have to check. And I cant help but feel that the case of where an atheist/agnostic converts to religion due to a miracle is something quite known or casual.

Edit: BAndrew, bible does not state anywhere that the earth is flat. Infact the only time it mentions the shape of Earth is when it describes it as a sphere

Double edit: I'm looking for YourComputer's post where he quoted it from the bible and the exact same chapter of it. Just as evidence.

[BAndrew]

@Dogfood

Evidence suggests you should check your facts:

Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)
(If the Earth is round you can't do that. No matter how high the mountain is.)

Job 38:44 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?

Job 38:15 "The earth takes shape like clay under a seal." (Clay when stamped under a seal is flattened and round in shape)

And I could probably find many more references.

Now in case you find that it says that Earth is sherical in the Bible: Congratulations, because you just discovered that it contradicts itself.

[Ghieri]

My response in boldEDIT: Goddamnit I'm too slow)

^ point of this is just to let you know that even though I follow religion i'm open to everything.

Not to be a dick, but you've kind of been dismissing our arguments because you "have faith". So you might be open to most things, but questioning religion isn't one of them, yes?

anyways to stay on topic, I'm not going to be making out cases out of thin air because currently I cant recall of any specific one where an atheist witnesses a miracle and converts. Uh oh.Keyword - Specific. But if I remember correctly there was a book written about someone that converted to religion, he probably witnessed something otherwise he wouldnt write a whole book about it. Who knows, i'll have to check. And I cant help but feel that the case of where an atheist/agnostic converts to religion due to a miracle is something quite known or casual.

You are correct that some atheists do this. I would argue that their atheism didn't come from a critical analysis of religion, but rather some sort of emotional event that turned them from religion. Or maybe they find their lives more complete or whatever. I don't know, I'm not one of them. That isn't really an argument.

Edit: BAndrew, bible does not state anywhere that the earth is flat. Infact the only time it mentions the shape of Earth is when it describes it as a sphere

You're kind of wrong, there. Then again there may be one or two claims to the contrary, but I'd take that in support of biblical fallibility.

Double edit: I'm looking for YourComputer's post where he quoted it from the bible and the exact same chapter of it. Just as evidence.

[Nice]

There's a fine geographical thingy called West, North, South and East. "Ends of earth" means from far away, you see that in modern literature, it's an artistic expression. There's an expression "Travelling to the ends of the Earth" and such it does not mean it literally

Edit: Ghieri i have answered to every argument, if you're refering to the free will thingy...I'll just be completely honest here, no offense but the reply i got to my latest post regarding it seemed like my point did not get across at all and as if I was explaining it to a wall, therefore I did not have the energy to repeat myself and I wont bother again. It's not that I had nothing to reply to your reply with, It's that i feel like that the newest post was not a step forward...at all. It did not raise any new questions and i didnt give any new answers

[BAndrew]

There's a fine geographical thingy called West, North, South and East. "Ends of earth" means from far away, you see that in modern literature, it's an artistic expression. There's an expression "Travelling to the ends of the Earth" and such it does not mean it literally

Alright, how convenient. How do you decide what in the bible is literal and what is not? Maybe nothing in it is literal and it's just an old piece of literature and therefore you shouldn't take it seriously.

Also , What do you have to say about the other references?

-across it (the Earth)
-The earth takes shape like clay under a seal

Do you want me to find more? Because I can.

[Nice]

Isaiah, you have load of references where it marks the surface as a circle

I cant comment those two examples because doesnt "across it" mean just through the whole thing?

"Clay under a seal" - No idea what that means, or what clay means.

BAndrew, when you're reading a book, how do you decide what is literal or what is not?

edit- my final reply for today, I'm exhausted

[7heDubz]

Dogfood, is god all-knowing?

[BAndrew]

Isaiah, you have load of references where it marks the surface as a circle
(I am not exactly sure what's your point here.)
I cant comment those two examples because doesnt "across it" mean just through the whole thing?

"Clay under a seal" - No idea what that means, or what clay means.

BAndrew, when you're reading a book, how do you decide what is literal or what is not?

edit- my final reply for today, I'm exhausted

I explained what's the problem with them.

Across it:

If they thought the Earth was a sphere, they would say "around it" not "across" it.

Clay thing:
Clay when stamped under a seal is flattened and round in shape.
In other words this implies that Earth is flat.

When I read a book it is clear what is literal and what is not. But in the bible apparently it isn't.

For example look at more ridiculous claims. Although I know that no matter what, you are always going to say that "It doesn't mean it literally". But after all if nothing is literal then probably Bible is a literature book. So let's go:

1.The Earth has pillars
"He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (From the NIV Bible, Job 9:6)"

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:4)"

2. The Earth has edges

"that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:13)"

"He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth. (From the NIV Bible, Job 37:3)"

"for he views the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens. (From the NIV Bible, Job 28:24)"


+More (See my post above)
3. The flat Earth is established and can never move. The Sun hurries back to where it rises.

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

"The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world [The deceiving translators should've said "earth", not "world"] is firmly established; it cannot be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 93:1)"

"Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world [Again, the deceiving translators should've said "earth", not "world"] is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 96:10)"

"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. (From the NIV Bible, Ecclesiastes 1:5)"

"Their measure is longer than the earth and wider than the sea. (From the NIV Bible, Job 11:9)"


4. The Earth is a flat circle or there is a flat circle above the Earth

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 40:22)



Conclusion:

The Bible not only fails to claim that the Earth is spherical-shaped, but it also claims in numerous verses as shown above that the Earth is flat, has Edges, has Four Corners, has Pillars, and has Foundations. Unless nothing in it is literal of course.

---

Dogfood, is god all-knowing?

See a couple of pages (I think 2) back. We discussed this.

[Ghieri]

Isaiah, you have load of references where it marks the surface as a circle

A circle is flat. The hebrews had a word for "sphere", but didn't use it.(Isaiah 40: 22)

You have been addressing our arguments, but you also keep saying that you aren't going to change your mind about religion.

EDIT: Again, leaving this here: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_flat_earth_claims