Execution / Game

[Froge]

I pretty much agree with Bridge's points actually.

As for why I still feel video game is the highest form of art, it's because not one other type of entertainment (eg. books, films, anime, etc.) leaves as powerful a lasting impression on me as a good game does. I can easily browse over my list of favourite books and films and music and art and say that I do not value them as highly as my list of favourite games.

[Alardem]

Bioshock is a brilliant example of a game that really doesn't deserve the art label its developers purport it to have. It s a brilliant setting realized by great art direction and good voice acting, only to have all the themes and decent writing contained in it be utterly squandered by the constraints of being a violent shooter with no intellectual options. I don't accept the utter cop-out of the developers saying "Lol it's supposed to be on-rails". It's basically just an annoyingly pretentious shooter. Infinite is even worse, as the plot discards the themes raised by the setting in favor of another meta-physical copout.

Deus Ex does it better. At least that doesn't rail-road you into blowing heads up all the time.

Games definitely are a good art form - their interactivity allows for the fulfilling of needs that films, television, radio and books cannot. Simulations/management games (Sims/Civilization/Tycoon games) let you manage the lives of eople. First-person games allow you to literally see the perspective of a fictional character. Horror games can make you fear for the vulnerability of your protagonist. RPGs allow you to embody a new persona. let I think I just appreciate game stories when the writer essentially thinks they're hot shit by pointing out the limitations of their form, rather than genuinely innovating. I guess I have little patience for poorly done post-modernism. :p

[Cuyir]

But that's not really objective, is it frog?

I have games I cherish more than some books and films I love but that doesn't mean it's the highest form of art. I personally think the gameplay limitations holds back games. You can't just remove interactivity because then it's a movie. So that's why I don't see it as the highest form of art. The very thing that makes it a game, is usually the one that brings the whole experience down and makes it ''just a game''.

Again, that's my point of view. I'm not an art appraiser or anything and my opinion is worth bollocks. But that's what I think.

@Alardem: yeah, Bioshock's a great example of what I call ''gameplay galleries'' ( a play on ''shooting galleries"). Games usually have very game-y parts (said gameplay galleries) and then the other elements are built around it but the disconnect is obvious. Bioshock's the ultimate example: "Oh no, I feel remorse for killing native americans or whatever/ oh no, these people are fascists OH WELL, LET ME SHOOT AND MAYBE ASK QUESTIONS LATER''.

Again, I don't mind games being games, even if they are as clunky as Bioshock, but yeah.

[Froge]

Art has never been objective. You can only explain why one piece of art is perhaps better than another, and I did so using the rationale that a good game masterfully interweaves four normally independent art forms.

[Cuyir]

Aaaaaaaaand that's why i'm not an art appraiser or enjoy discussing ''art''. I'm too strict/obtuse/etc. for it. With that ''art is subjective'' ''excuse'' (don't hit me with the fury of a billion suns, people) gives way to ''LOL I SPAT SOME PHLEGM AT A CANVAS, IT REPRESENTS HOW MY PERSONALITY IS POISONOUS OR SOME WANKING SHIT''.

[Bridge]

Honestly, I am fanatical about a lot of games but I can only think of TLOU being the only game that uses all the elements without being clunky. The game's tone, theme and even Joel's and Ellie's characterization are seen THROUGH gameplay, not just ''SHHHH CUTSCENE".

Planescape: Torment? Also, who says "SHHHH CUTSCENE" is necessarily a bad thing? I offer Metal Gear Solid as evidence to the contrary. Regardless, nothing is perfect, and I don't see how it makes sense to say video games are somehow inherently less perfect than other forms of art. Other games that balance their elements: Morrowind, Thief 1+2, Portal, Splinter Cell series (in my opinion). None of these games are perfect but they are balanced in such a way that they are greater than the sum of their parts, and there are countless more examples.

EDIT: Wait, the fact that games stop being games when you remove their core feature is evidence that they are inferior to other forms of art? A bike is worth nothing without wheels, does that mean riding a bicycle is inferior to walking? Of course games aren't reducible, but who said they were?

[Cuyir]

Never played it, it's been in my list forever but I don't really want to bother trying to get it to run on a contemporary system.

I sort of enjoy MGS but it's an incredibly overwritten and cutscene laden experience. Cutscenes aren't inherently detrimental but a lot of games, MGS included, use them as a crutch. "Here's all this info we couldn't give you in any other way so pay attention''.

It's like with jump scares, people usually hate them but they aren't inherently detrimental. For jump scares to work the atmosphere has to be perfect so it makes you AFRAID of a possible jumpscare...without anything happening. But that's neither here nor there.

I loved Morrowind. It's one of my favorite games of all time, it was clunky then and it's clunky now. Doesn't mean it's not an incredible game, just means it doesn't fulfill stuff I wanted it to fulfill in a specific manner. It was the perfect roleplaying game and it made me feel like I was going on an adventure but still, the narrative was delivered in a clunky way because of how the gameplay was structured (ie do whatever you want) so the narrative takes a backseat. It has always taken a backseat in TES games. One element isn't taken to its maximum potential because of the gameplay.

To me, a game's gameplay is usually against odds with the rest of the package. It doesn't kill the experience at all (or else I wouldn't play games) but the division is really perceptible, unlike the ''purer'' arts.

And in regards to your edit: not necessarily saying that (or maybe I am, I don't even know). Just saying how the element that makes it unique (gameplay interaction) is usually the one's that's at odds with the rest of the package. Some games DO balance the elements well but not well enough and the ''seams'' are visible.

I don't consider the Penumbra or Amnesia games great (REAAAAALLY good games though, just not ''great''). The ''seams'' in them have always been really obvious, which made my experience feel clunky in some level.

[Bridge]

Never played it, it's been in my list forever but I don't really want to bother trying to get it to run on a contemporary system.

Planescape? It's on GOG for like 5 bucks, works on Windows 7 and probably 8. Play it, it is probably the best game ever made.

I sort of enjoy MGS but it's an incredibly overwritten and cutscene laden experience. Cutscenes aren't inherently detrimental but a lot of games, MGS included, use them as a crutch. "Here's all this info we couldn't give you in any other way so pay attention''.

Personally I disagree, in fact the cutscenes are the main reason I love the MGS games. The writing is to me amazing; fascinating story, intricately detailed characters. The cutscenes use some fantastic cinematography and somehow manage to look enthralling despite the extremely low poly models. I don't agree with it being overwritten. MGS1 and MGS3 at least are perfectly understandable and easy to grasp if you are paying attention, MGS2 is a total mess that I still don't understand, regrettably I haven't played MGS4 (and I kick myself every day). I guess if you didn't care about the story the cutscenes would be annoying to watch but I love it. I don't have a problem with extreme contrasts, like MGS's mostly self-contained gameplay contrasting its amazing cutscenes and boss battles because they both complement each other. I have moments where I hate the gameplay and yet I find it impossible to call it bad or even inappropriate. I dunno, I just don't consider it a crutch. I really like reading in video games for example. That information could be transmitted through other media but why complicate things?

I don't consider the Penumbra or Amnesia games great (REAAAAALLY good games though, just not ''great''). The ''seams'' in them have always been really obvious, which made my experience feel clunky in some level.

Me neither. I'd say "really good" is a good way to describe them. On one hand you have some utterly amazing and unforgettable moments, great visual and sound design and on the other you have FG's seemingly complete inability to develop and especially conclude a narrative (in my opinion). There are also a lot of design decisions I oppose quite strongly that I won't get it into.

EDIT: About Morrowind, yeah, it is clunky. The narrative is not smooth as you said (although I liked the plot in the way I don't think it is particularly strong either), but I would still readily call it great. Its flaws somehow manage to be some of its most endearing qualities (in my opinion). As I said, nothing is perfect - I find it utterly useless to classify games on objective terms like that.

@Cuyir
TLOU gameplay is said to be quite "meh", though, isn't it?

I haven't played the game, I only watched a Let's Play, but this was my perception as well. The gameplay is in places contrived and gamey and while the story and themes are often interwoven with the gameplay it doesn't strike me as particularly compelling. But the story and character development is great so it doesn't matter - right?

[Mechavomit]

@Cuyir
TLOU gameplay is said to be quite "meh", though, isn't it?

[Cuyir]

@Cuyir
TLOU gameplay is said to be quite "meh", though, isn't it?

Meh how? Clunky? Hard to control?

I thought that the combat didn't only feel realistic to both characters (Joel would fight in such a way that showed his true personality, which made me go ''oh.....'' later in the game and Ellie would be mostly only able to fend them off for a moment) but also controlled well. Both characters reacted to kills made by Joel (Joel with a bit of post fight anger and exertion and Ellie with ''holy shits'' and her body language).

Not only that but they had the perfect amount of ''setpieces'' (which I won't spoil) that reflected the narrative events in the controls, they showed character development through gameplay (walking through gorgeous post apocalyptic greenery while they're conversing and paying attention to stuff in the environment you're walking through). There are moments that players can miss where Joel and Ellie are exploring and they see something and if you press a button Joel will say something. There's also a scene that's features a core mechanic (that by that moment in time players will be incredibly used to) being interrupted because Ellie isn't responsive and you, as a player, have the option to jar Ellie out of her funk by walking to her and saying ''psst hey, need help''.

It has really small moments in the gameplay (both combat and exploration) that add that extra wrinkle which marries gameplay with tone, themes and narrative. It's really hard to explain without sounding like a wanker. You play it and you're liable to notice some of the little touches that makes the world have heft.

It controls well and it's fun (while being just brutal and tense enough to not break the ''illusion'' of playing a game). That's a pet peeve of mine: when games break that immersion ''illusion'' by having a mechanic that feels too game-y and tone/thematically out of place (Bioshock is again the ultimate example of this, but contemporary war shooters also suffer from it).

It features the same ''gameplay galleries'' I've spoken about but it's done in such a good way that it makes it harder to detect the seams and thus makes it work.

@ Bridge: MGS4 is pretty tiresome. You're explained a whole timeline of events up to that point in the first 1/4 of the game. Then a big important character comes in and shatters everything you were forced to watch and memorize. THEN another character does the SAME thing and then AGAIN. It got tiresome. It made me look back on my experience of MGS4 poorly because of it.

And as for TLOU: watching isn't the same as experiencing it first hand. Watching a lets play of a videogame is sort of the equivalent of being told what happened in a movie without seeing it.

Morrowind is incredible. It's a great game. It's a masterpiece. Wouldn't call it high art. Its gameness brings down other elements, which is where my whole stance on the topic rests on.