Genders in Gaming Target Audiences.

[VaeVictis]

Kman- Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.
Because those things are NOT biological imperatives and strictly cultural, and because media does not exist in a vacuum outside of reality, it is important that those that contribute to it do so in a way that doesn't reinforce harmful stereotypes and types. This includes the way that women as a class are treated.
You imply that those things you listed effect the product being put out on the shelves. I'm saying that those things are culturally reinforced and harmful, and we are capable of much better products. While men and women may have slight differences in brains at birth, culture exaggerates them to the nth degree.
The rest bridge said.

[Kman]

Even if that were true, and I'm not implying that it is or isn't because I don't have enough knowledge either way, it would only be a general way to describe things, not an absolute one. I have a disconnect between arousal and wanting to engage in any sort of sexual act, but I'm not a woman. It stands to reason that people are not doomed to follow nature's dictates with no conceivable free will and if they actually think things through they can come to unintuitive conclusions that defy what one would expect of their gender. Does it induce cognitive dissonance? Yeah, but what aspect of society doesn't involve even a little cognitive dissonance?

well yeah of course there's going to be variation. common to general belief gender is not a 100% strictly binary concept that aligns with your sex, but rather a spectrum (see: the concept of gender dysphoria, agenderism, literally the entire concept of trangenderism). much like sexuality it's more of a spectrum with the majority of people falling closer to the side that matches their sex, but that's not to say that you or i or others don't fall somewhere in between the two. i think that video does a pretty good job of explaining what sorts of traits are expressed on either end of the spectrum, and considering that the majority of people fall on the far end of the spectrum that matches their sex, it'd make sense that you'd see those ideas and standards expressed the majority of the time when you observe things created by either sex.

It's precarious to talk about gender-specific "undertones" if one can not point to even a single example that is unique to one gender.

the above statement pretty much applies here to. of course because not everyones sex is going to align perfectly with their gender and as a result you can get outliers like that. on top of that, of course there will always be people who are able to reach beyond that and create something without any influence based on societally held values of either sex

Furthermore, what implications do Acies' words have, that male undertones make games created by males somehow repellent to females? That males should only play games created by males and females only games created by females?

well, yeah, they are kind of repellent to a lot of females in that way. you kind of have to be blind to have missed the entire debate thats been going on throughout the entire internet over the last 2-3 years over female objectification in gaming and female representation. even beyond that itself gaming communities tend to be some of the worst breeding grounds for sexism and misogyny. maybe these ~male and female undertones~ really have more impact on people than you seem to be realizing.

and no, the point is that when we have such an abundance of male game creators and a lack of female ones its all too easy for men to misrepresent females and created these over sexualized simplistic characters that are just helping to further those mindsets. to not only be a more accepting community to people of both sexes and furthermore to not help encourage these mindsets in men we should work to better represent them and not simply throw them around like sex objects.

You imply that those things you listed effect the product being put out on the shelves. I'm saying that those things are culturally reinforced and harmful, and we are capable of much better products.

like im not even disagreeing with what youre saying its just

thats not really what im trying to argue. yes in a perfect world none of those things i listed would have an impact on media but that doesn't change the fact that they do and as a result when we're discussing the differences between content either sex puts out its relevant to bring up those points even if they can be avoided and are societally imposed.

also i wrote this in like 3 different sessions in the middle of a convo with someone so its probably horribly scatter brained and all over the place and its super late so i do nootttt have the energy to read over it all again so uh. i apologize for that

[Bridge]

well, yeah, they are kind of repellent to a lot of females in that way.

Do you know what the word "vicarious" means? Merriam-Webster gives this definition:

vi·car·i·ous adjective \vī-ˈker-ē-əs, və-\

experienced or felt by watching, hearing about, or reading about someone else rather than by doing something yourself

This is possible because of a thing called empathy which all non-psychopaths have to some extent. It's what makes it possible for you to play a game as a non-human like an anthropomorphic animal or supernatural being or a human with exaggerated qualities or even a character that is the polar opposite of yourself. It's also the reason why filthy sexist pigs such as myself can play as female characters and it making sense despite not being female in real life. What are you suggesting when you say that females are repellent to games with male protagonists or even just male undertones? Either that women are incapable of empathy or that they are unwilling to be exposed to different views from their own, if these undertones even exist at all, that is.

This must also be the reason why females don't read books, watch movies and listen to music created by men, right? Because of the male undertones?

Bear in mind I am not necessarily talking about games where you play as a stupid brute of an action hero rescuing a weak and defenseless damsel in distress with no story to speak of whatsoever. Most males are not even interested in those types of games, and if they are it is because the gameplay is enjoyable, not because of "male undertones."

even beyond that itself gaming communities tend to be some of the worst breeding grounds for sexism and misogyny.

Oh, silly me, here I was thinking that modern Islam was the worst breeding ground for sexism and misogyny. Because, y'know, Saudi Arabia is an actual patriarchy and the oppression of women there is demonstrable. You don't need to concoct media conspiracies or point to hidden undertones because the sexism is there for all to see - I don't think anybody would even deny it.

maybe these ~male and female undertones~ really have more impact on people than you seem to be realizing.

It's entirely conceivable, except I don't know what these undertones are. People here have described them only with vague language. How is anybody supposed to determine if they exist if nobody even knows what they are.

EDIT: I feel I need to make a short disclaimer because it seems like not everyone understands what I'm trying to say:

I'm not lobbying for things to stay as they are, necessarily. While I don't think representation is as important as most people say - in fact, one could argue that it's quasi-narcissistic or vain to have such a desire to see oneself in the media one consumes* - it makes little sense for things to stay so skewed. But what can you do? These are simple stories that are easy to tell and easy to comprehend that make a killing and if they continue to do so things won't change. I think we must do either of following:

1) Admit that games as an artistic medium have as many merits or at least as many possibilities as the other artistic media, like literature, film, "art" and music, and exclude these lazy products from the conversation. In other words, only focus on the serious efforts and look at how sexist they are. Not much, in my opinion. There is "sexism" in film and literature too, but people would think twice before calling them inherently sexist media. So, too, it should be with games.

2) Exclude the artistic side of games or any other media from the equation and talk only about the popularly consumed products; their effect on society and how we can go about changing society. In other words, stop picking on games for the drivel that the mainstream assembly line regurgitates because we don't do it for any other medium.

*Unless the motive is just to guard against misinformation.

[Kman]

What are you suggesting when you say that females are repellent to games with male protagonists or even just male undertones? Either that women are incapable of empathy or that they are unwilling to be exposed to different views from their own, if these undertones even exist at all, that is.

you are m i s s i n g the point they are turned off from games in which women are misrepresented usually through objectification to appeal to a male audience and are generally watered down and over simplified based on stupid stereotypes. that is all i am trying to argue here. i don't even know where you're getting ideas like this cause its not what im saying at all.

this isn't even some "stupid mindless action game" trend either its pretty recurrent through higher quality games too if you pay attention.

Oh, silly me, here I was thinking that modern Islam was the worst breeding ground for sexism and misogyny.

howwww was it not clear given the circumstances and language i was using and context that i was referring to online communities among different websites and hobbies. yes of course a bunch of dumbass developers showing off a bunch of boobs isn't comparable to women being mistreated in islam

It's entirely conceivable, except I don't know what these undertones are. People here have described them only with vague language. How is anybody supposed to determine if they exist if nobody even knows what they are.

i've already (indirectly) brought up most of these before but w/e

• over sexualization of women
  
• portraying women as objects to be won
  
• portraying men as hypermasculine and emotionless
  
• portraying women as subservant to the man
  

to name a few. obviously given the discussion most of these are focused around how a male viewpoint might effect a product

i don't even think some stupid shit like "ALL GAME DEVELOPERS AND GAMERS ARE SEXIST PIGS!@!!@!!!" or anything like that like i said a lot of this stuff i think is simply attributed to ignorance so you can't really blame anyone for it but for that same reason i think its important that we have a discussion about it and actually try and listen when people bring up stuff like this instead of spewing the same old stupid "lol feminism!!! the patriarchy!!!! get it guys its funny cause it doesnt exist hahaha!!" shit that gets thrown around whenever any sort of discussion on womens rights and representation is brought up

[Wooderson]

I blame Hollywood.

[Bridge]

howwww was it not clear given the circumstances and language i was using and context that i was referring to online communities among different websites and hobbies. yes of course a bunch of dumbass developers showing off a bunch of boobs isn't comparable to women being mistreated in islam

It wasn't clear, and people in the Western world with all its advances in equality often forget that real sexism is far more boring and sinister than the cloak-and-dagger plots imagined by feminists.

i've already (indirectly) brought up most of these before but w/e

• over sexualization of women
  
• portraying women as objects to be won
  
• portraying men as hypermasculine and emotionless
  
• portraying women as subservant to the man
  

to name a few. obviously given the discussion most of these are focused around how a male viewpoint might effect a product

See, this is where you need to tread very lightly. If these are male undertones that males recognize and appreciate, then men are a inherently sexist gender. I have a huge problem with this contention and especially the idea that women are then not sexist at all and therefore the creation of games should be entrusted to them. I'm not saying you said that, though.

i don't even think some stupid shit like "ALL GAME DEVELOPERS AND GAMERS ARE SEXIST PIGS!@!!@!!!" or anything like that like i said a lot of this stuff i think is simply attributed to ignorance so you can't really blame anyone for it but for that same reason i think its important that we have a discussion about it and actually try and listen when people bring up stuff like this instead of spewing the same old stupid "lol feminism!!! the patriarchy!!!! get it guys its funny cause it doesnt exist hahaha!!" shit that gets thrown around whenever any sort of discussion on womens rights and representation is brought up

Then we are agreed. My only problem is with people attributing this to systematic sexism. There is no dispute about the output, but despite what some people would say the input is not completely unambiguous at all. AKA, correlation does not imply causation.

[Kman]

See, this is where you need to tread very lightly. If these are male undertones that males recognize and appreciate, then men are a inherently sexist gender.

well no, im sure if you looked more in depth you could find more that weren't inherently problematic and sexist, but if we're having a discussion about representation of the sexes in gaming and how that might steer women off gaming as an art form, those aren't too relevant.

and well, to a certain extent yeah i don't think its possible (or at least its highly unlikely) for any man to live his entire life without being sexist to some degree. because of the society we leave in and its attitudes towards women vs men, a lot of very sexist beliefs are ingrained in peoples heads without them really even being conscious of it cause that's just how our society functions (see: slut shaming, the difference in reaction between when either sex is authoritative, body policing and beauty standards, etc.). whether you want to admit it or not we live in a patriarchy and as a result a lot of sexist beliefs are already set in place from the time you're born. no of course these sorts of problems aren't comparable to women in islam being abused or other situations where the imbalance is blatantly obvious, but that doesn't mean that there isn't an imbalance on some level and that it's not still worth discussing. likewise, i don't think that people that hold these attitudes are sexist or bad people or anywhere near as harmful as people who are openly sexist, but its still worth pointing out when someone holds a belief like the ones listed above that could harm others so that they could hopefully learn and not repeat those actions in the future. in short, i don't blame anyone for being ignorant, but they should still be educated when they are.

[Streetboat]

i only think women are crazy because of my personal experiences and let-downs with them, not because of anything media or television has led me to believe.

[Bridge]

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[Streetboat]

ah ha i see my insightful and well thought-out argument has baffled you!