Interstellar marines, kickstarter and a running man

[Bridge]

Here's a pet peeve of mine: People confusing "RPG" with "options". The reason why there are so many options in role playing games is because it is difficult to provide the player with an immersive experience if he is forced to do something only one way. But having the option to choose is not role-playing and while it's nifty to be able to give the philosophy of customization and options a name I think RPG-element is a misnomer. Really, it doesn't matter if you have all the weapons in the world, if there are no dialogue options and if you cannot affect the game world in a meaningful way it's not an RPG. Period.

[Solitary Walker]

Doesn't seem interesting at all.

[failedALIAS]

Here's a pet peeve of mine: People confusing "RPG" with "options". The reason why there are so many options in role playing games is because it is difficult to provide the player with an immersive experience if he is forced to do something only one way. But having the option to choose is not role-playing and while it's nifty to be able to give the philosophy of customization and options a name I think RPG-element is a misnomer. Really, it doesn't matter if you have all the weapons in the world, if there are no dialogue options and if you cannot affect the game world in a meaningful way it's not an RPG. Period.

Give me a hug!

[Argoon]

Didn't saw this thread about IM before posting my update sorry for that, please see the video on it.
From the replies i see here i have the impression some just came strait from the TotalBuiscuit interview (where kim was very nervous) without even trying the FREE demos and seeing the videos on the kickstarter page. I don't know how much better can the developers show the promise of their game on kickstarter, is like you guys asking Frictional Games to show you the final Penumbra game before even showing the Penumbra alpha demo to the world, just like the IM demos it was just a small taste a prof of concept of the final Penumbra game where all ideas came to full fruition and culminated on the fantastic Amnesia game, why don't you guys give ZPS the same chance? Is true that ZPS and their game had a troubled past but that shouldn't be a deterrent for anyone, everyone can have a second chance and this guys are battling on kickstarter for it, please read the page see the videos play the demos, no one will see the game promise for you nor is it easy to explain the feeling of the demos without you experiencing them your selfs, please don't judge the game from the deadlock demo is still very incomplete alpha software where 98 percent of the final demo is still to be completed, play the other demos does give a better taste for the Final IM game at lest a small portion of the gun feeling and customization plus a preview of character movement feeling.

[jens]

Since we are used as an example now

The difference would be that our tech demo was more or less feature complete, pretty much everything in Penumbra Overture was demonstrated in the tech demo. Then the second and much larger difference is that we created a game first, then asked for money for it, not the other way around. Third, we created a game based on the resources we had or thought we could scrape together, a total of 50 000 USD was used to create Penumbra Overture (or actually to run the whole company during the time it took, not just the project expenses).

[MyRedNeptune]

Here's a pet peeve of mine: People confusing "RPG" with "options". The reason why there are so many options in role playing games is because it is difficult to provide the player with an immersive experience if he is forced to do something only one way. But having the option to choose is not role-playing and while it's nifty to be able to give the philosophy of customization and options a name I think RPG-element is a misnomer. Really, it doesn't matter if you have all the weapons in the world, if there are no dialogue options and if you cannot affect the game world in a meaningful way it's not an RPG. Period.

Also, confusing immersion with realism.

[Argoon]

Since we are used as an example now

The difference would be that our tech demo was more or less feature complete, pretty much everything in Penumbra Overture was demonstrated in the tech demo. Then the second and much larger difference is that we created a game first, then asked for money for it, not the other way around. Third, we created a game based on the resources we had or thought we could scrape together, a total of 50 000 USD was used to create Penumbra Overture (or actually to run the whole company during the time it took, not just the project expenses).

I feel especial now for having a reply from you jens , btw i was not comparing the games per se but the way you guys first made a alpha demo and then made a final game, just like ZPS is trying to do, also with all respect for you guys and your work you can't really compare the ambition of Interstellar Marines with the one of the first Penumbra, first they are totally different genre of games, second the work to goes in to make a tactical FPS just like ZPS is trying to make is much more complex, for example the number of characters they need to make and animate, the number of enemies they need to make and give believable AI and number of guns they need to model and make custumizable, etc, ect, ZPS is trying to make a AAA looking game with a indie budget and team so they do need a little more money to do that then you guys did for Penumbra. Sorry for my grammar English is not my first language so i hope you comprehend also i'm not trying to diminish you guys work, for the contrary i'm a big fan and i bought all your games in day one, i'm just trying to make you and others see that ZPS does need the money they ask to present the game vision they think their game deserves.

[MyRedNeptune]

Since we are used as an example now

The difference would be that our tech demo was more or less feature complete, pretty much everything in Penumbra Overture was demonstrated in the tech demo. Then the second and much larger difference is that we created a game first, then asked for money for it, not the other way around. Third, we created a game based on the resources we had or thought we could scrape together, a total of 50 000 USD was used to create Penumbra Overture (or actually to run the whole company during the time it took, not just the project expenses).

I feel especial now for having a reply from you jens , btw i was not comparing the games per se but the way you guys first made a alpha demo and then made a final game, just like ZPS is trying to do, also with all respect for you guys and your work you can't really compare the ambition of Interstellar Marines with the one of the first Penumbra, first they are totally different genre of games, second the work to goes in to make a tactical FPS just like ZPS is trying to make is much more complex, for example the number of characters they need to make and animate, the number of enemies they need to make and give believable AI and number of guns they need to model and make custumizable, etc, ect, ZPS is trying to make a AAA looking game with a indie budget and team so they do need a little more money to do that then you guys did for Penumbra. Sorry for my grammar English is not my first language so i hope you comprehend also i'm not trying to diminish you guys work, for the contrary i'm a big fan and i bought all your games in day one, i'm just trying to make you and others see that ZPS does need the money they ask to present the game vision they think their game deserves.

Well, don't you think the success of an indie developer depends on how well they manage their resources?

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

also with all respect for you guys and your work you can't really compare the ambition of Interstellar Marines with the one of the first Penumbra, first they are totally different genre of games, second the work to goes in to make a tactical FPS just like ZPS is trying to make is much more complex, for example the number of characters they need to make and animate, the number of enemies they need to make and give believable AI and number of guns they need to model and make custumizable, etc, ect, ZPS is trying to make a AAA looking game with a indie budget and team so they do need a little more money to do that then you guys did for Penumbra.

And that is exactly the reason why I think that this project does NOT deserve the faith of the backers. Not only are they aiming way too high and the risk that it will fail is astronomical, the lack of ability (or willingness!) to scale it down to something more reasonable also shows a lack of professionalism and experience in my opinion.

If a small company like Frictional has a really cool and unique idea and needs 50.000 to make a short but sweet game that proves the basic concept will work in a more ambitious project, too, hey, more power to them!
But a company that says, "yea we need over half a million bucks to get this huuuge thing started, but trust us, once its finished its going to be AWESOME" ?
Sorry, but I have trouble putting my faith in that. It reminds me of those overambitious student projects that inevitably come crashing down to reality at some point. True professionalism, in my opinion, means being able to boil a bunch of crazy ideas down to the juicy core of what's really new and exiting about them, not merely blowing insane amounts of money into a project to make it "AAA".

[WALP]

Actually I think it was the most responsible thing they could do.
ZPS has said that 600,000$ is the abselute minimum and after all thats only enough to have like 10-15 people employed for a year. Imagine if they had gone for something much lower so that it would be more realistick for them to make the kickstarter, would it be realistick that they could make the game? no, and many people would be dissapointed and loose faith in the company forever. The kickstarter is important but the game is more important.

As for frictional games making a game for 50,000 dollars, the people must have been seriusly underpayed since thats only enough to pay one person for a year, just saying.
But still an impressive achievent though, espacially since as far as I heard people were working from home.
But dont shoulder the great achievements of Frictionalgames on every other indie developer you see.