To all you modders out there!

[Bridge]

I think we can all do without the condescension, Robo. Funderbunk clearly has experience in this field.

Funny how you all notice mine, yet fail to notice his.
"You are simply wrong."
Refusing to accept there is the possibility of discussion, and I would beg to differ. And actually Funder, what they said does not support what you said, rather it goes against it. You say it should not take place beforehand, but afterwards, they say it should be beforehand or during.

I apologize if that's the case - I haven't been following this argument. Still, I do not think your response is justified at all. It's irrefutable that Funderbunk does have a certain degree of experience. You may disagree with him, which is fine, but at least try to be courteous.

[darkely]

Funderbunk: why do you seem to have a bone to pick with everyone here? I know sometimes I get into stupid arguments at times, but not nearly as often.

I mean I can be a cynical bastard at times, but I don't outright show it most of the time.

[Bridge]

I will not be courteous to those who do not extend their courtesy to me. Simple as. If they are condescending I will be back to them, if they are hostile, I will be as well.

As you wish.

[rtjhbfvsrry]

Oh, I'm sorry. I'll start prefacing all my posts with "Note: This is my opinion". Would you feel better if I went back and edited my post by adding a little "IMO" after "you are wrong", despite it being patently obvious by nature of me being the one who posted it?

I see now where you misunderstand me now, though. I watched the videos again to see exactly what they're saying, and they still support my point - you say they don't because you misunderstood my point. What I'm saying is not "tack it on at the end, after your game is done". What I'm saying is that you need to have your basic gameplay designed, not implemented. Not your puzzles, not your enemies, not other obstacles, not the exact mechanics of how quickly something moves, but you do need to have designed what actions your player can do and how they experience things (gameplay) before you can start creating your narrative, because your narrative is a thing your player will experience through the gameplay. You can design these things before you ever have an engine, before you even TOUCH a computer (I've written about a million design documents and game pitches that never got to that stage), but you need to design these things before you make a narrative. I'm not saying you need to have your game completed before you put in a story, that would be ridiculous, but you cannot design a narrative if you do not know how this narrative will be experienced. Hence, designing your gameplay comes first. Always.

You can still design your narrative before you build the actual game, and it's smart to do it before you start putting in puzzles, or designing levels. Obstacles and areas are not core gameplay - like the narrative they are things the player experiences and they are intertwined and nothing is worse than a random puzzle that has nothing to do with the plot in a game which is story driven. But you have to know what you can do in your gameplay before you start designing what you will put in it.

Funderbunk: why do you seem to have a bone to pick with everyone here? I know sometimes I get into stupid arguments at times, but not nearly as often.

I mean I can be a cynical bastard at times, but I don't outright show it most of the time.

Having a bone to pick implies that I have a problem with the person, and I don't know Robosprog well enough to have a problem with him (though I'm a bit concerned that me saying he's wrong equates to insulting). I disagree with him because I think he's wrong (see, I learned) and that's all this is about. I apologize if this seems like a vendetta (although I'm not sure how it would because I don't remember argueing with Robosprog before), I'm just very confident in my opinions and I'm a bit of jerk, really. I've explained this before.

Yes, I realize that I broke my own "I will not acknowledge you bla". Go away, smartass.

[WALP]

I think its a mix to be honest, you should have some basic core gameplay to start with, then you can write most of the story but no need to go too much into detail yet. then as you go you will add more detail to the gameplay, but do so with the narrative/story in mind so that it can enhance it.

A good but example of this would be Metro 2033 (but also a bad example since it is based on a book )
They likely had the idea that it would be a first person with guns in it pretty early, but then they fleshed it out by making you have to pump your flashlight to keep it lighting strong, or search for ammonition, or a more story oriented example would be the part were you had to stare at the ghost, or the librarians.

You start with simple gameplay to get an approach, then you add the main story on it and expand from there, that my opinion.

[rtjhbfvsrry]

Now I feel silly that this thing exploded and I spent so much time typing up my opinions on the internet again. For reference, could you point out where I'm being so obviously unclear that I frustratingly repeat myself over and over? Because this is the I-don't-know-how-manyeth time that it turns out I'm arguing with someone with someone I'm in agreement with all along. Maybe I have my terminology wrong - when I studied game design, it was in dutch.

[darkely]

Now I feel silly that this thing exploded and I spent so much time typing up my opinions on the internet again. For reference, could you point out where I'm being so obviously unclear that I frustratingly repeat myself over and over? Because this is the I-don't-know-how-manyeth time that it turns out I'm arguing with someone with someone I'm in agreement with all along. Maybe I have my terminology wrong - when I studied game design, it was in dutch.

Congrats. You've made a complete ass out of yourself.

Yes, I realize that I broke my own "I will not acknowledge you bla". Go away, smartass.

Nah. I've been here for a little over a year now and I love it so far. I love how you call me a smartass when you're the one who is constantly acting like one. What a little hypocrite you are.

[rtjhbfvsrry]

Hrm, that last bit wasn't actually directed specifically at you. I didn't say it to point out my own hypocrisy or anything. Fair enough, though. Carry on.

[Statyk]

Can't this forum ever have a discussion without having hostility and sensitivity towards opposing opinions/beliefs? Agree to disagree and move on. When has a discussion ever changed a person's opinions? It usually doesn't. Stop instigating each other.

And Darkley, no offense, but if anyone seems to be picking bones, it's you. You've been quite "testy" recently and I'd like to ask if you could settle down. No one is against you here, though you come off to me as being against everyone else. Relax man... All of you.

I like to believe this community is mature enough to shake hands and get over an argument without me having to close it. (I hate doing that. Don't make me do it)

[Bridge]

Can't this forum ever have a discussion without having hostility and sensitivity towards opposing opinions/beliefs? Agree to disagree and move on. When has a discussion ever changed a person's opinions? It usually doesn't. Stop instigating each other.

And Darkley, no offense, but if anyone seems to be picking bones, it's you. You've been quite "testy" recently and I'd like to ask if you could settle down. No one is against you here, though you come off to me as being against everyone else. Relax man... All of you.

I like to believe this community is mature enough to shake hands and get over an argument without me having to close it. (I hate doing that. Don't make me do it)

Well, I think you fight like a cow. So what you gonna do, tough guy?