(09-13-2013, 11:26 AM)Kein Wrote: If you played DD then you would know that Shadow isn't a cunning and smart beast like the Machine, it is brutal, ruthless and primordial. transcend being that devours and destroys everything around. It has no interest in playing silly games with Oswald or constructing some weird machine for pigs. You took orb? You used its powers? You pay the price, end of story.
I agree, however Shadow had an agenda regardless of this. It attempted to drown Daniel during his trip back home, and then changed its mind (or played a game, to show him, he casts a shadow). It also allowed Agrippa to live after he found an orb, while a lot of other people weren't this fortunate (just as if the Shadow had long-term plans for those he'd left alive).
(09-13-2013, 11:26 AM)Kein Wrote: If you played DD then you would know that Shadow isn't a cunning and smart beast like the Machine, it is brutal, ruthless and primordial. transcend being that devours and destroys everything around. It has no interest in playing silly games with Oswald or constructing some weird machine for pigs. You took orb? You used its powers? You pay the price, end of story.
Yeah, I did play. I'm just trying to understand the plot, as everyone else here. I'm not saying I'm absolutely right, I just try to push discussion further, so that everyone share their thoughts, that's all.
BTW, here all Oswald's journal entries:
source=http://amnesia.wikia.com/wiki/Mandus%27_Journal
Now we need the dialogs and the flashbacks...
Spoiler below!
A Fever Dream
I wake alone, to a house in silence. That missing sound of children playing is like a dark and fecund sepulcher, beckoning me to begin a descent to the loam where surely only bodies may be found. No matter - my children call and I shall answer. I will find them. Attics and Nurseries
But they slept in the attic when they were babes-in-arms, and perhaps they have hidden there now? I remember I insisted upon it, midway between my bedroom and my office. The Weeping Rooms
Where once we sat to weep Lily's passing, under weapons that cannot slay the angels to retrieve her from heaven. Look beyond the paintings, Oswald, where once you watched her bathe. The children must have discovered those secret places and taken refuge there. Grand Hall
That voice on the telephone, he speaks as if he knows me and indeed I seem to remember him. Like a twin pulled away from the other at birth, I feel we are entwined, though I cannot conceive of how. I am a drowning man grasping for the surface within my own house. Beneath me, I know there are splendid architectures hidden in the dark, if I can only find the entrances. On Bears and Bathtubs
And after the party, she took my arm and said "but darling, however did you get from the trophy room to the guest bathroom so quickly? Everyone considers you quite the magician!" My darling Lillibeth, my father's house has many rooms, and as for mine...well, it also has its secret chambers. A Curious Discovery
Metal ticking as it cools and contracts. This must be the strange machine my new friend told me of. If my children discovered this place, it is entirely conceivable they strayed downwards, delighted in their discovery. Very well, it seems my route is predestined. The descent begins! Trapped
Was it a trick? That voice on the phone, who seems so close to my own, who seems to know me so well, does he lead me for a nefarious purpose of his own secret devising? But do I have a choice? Even though his motives are unknown to me, I must find my boys. I will follow the machinery down to the very core of the earth if it will lead me to Edwin and Enoch. The saboteur has been this way
Intriguing. The gates are far too heavy for a man to lift and are instead hoisted aloft by a chain coiled about a tube that appears to be spun by motors connected to these electrical switches. Whilst the fuse is blown, the motor cannot be spun, and the gates will remain an impenetrable barrier to progress. More electrical sabotage
Another confounded fuse box. The fellow is thorough in his sabotage, if somewhat repetitive. The stench from these barrels is quite discomforting. I would certainly hope that whatever chemistry this room is designed to store is not a defining feature of the flood that threatens my children. The path is clear...
It seems this chemical processor is merely one part of a much larger complex. No easy route for me, then. I will follow my fever, the calls of my children wherever they may lead mem as I move further into this empire. The Factory Offices
All the suggestions of a large workforce, yet no actual signs of life. It is every bit as if someone has attempted to carefully create the illusion of a working factory complex, yet this facade, when examined closely, is clearly just a fabrication. But I must put aside my anxieties, quell the unease that pits my stomach and continue on my path. Pumping Station
It appears to be some kind of fuelling station. I have seen automobiles demonstrated ar Mr Yarham and Mr Simmon's works, but the smell here is all wrong. This is not petroleum , of that I am sure. Everything suggests to me that this machine must be significant in some way. Holy Orders
This church is connected to the plant - how odd. However, it does suggest another route into the main part of the facility, given the locked doors around the fuelling station. The truck blucks my way however, almost as if the saboteur knew that I might consider this alternative entrance. A Strange Container
This canister looks as if it may fit the fuel pump I saw earlier. It certainly carries the same fetid, unholy reek. I will not think of that which I saw pass me in its cage, I will not gaze again into that dark machine room. A more immediate task presents itself, and the opportunity perhaps to gain access to St Dunstan's. A Fast Getaway!
Dear sweet Lord of all that is good and holy! I must make my escape, grasp this container and its putrid contents and flee this place before that creature, that nearly-man returns. I will head for the church, surely such an abomination could not follow onto hallowed ground! Inside St. Dunstan's
We sat here, I remember, we sat in our black and we mourned and we prayed and we bowed our heads. How I hated God then, how I spurned Him. If this is our Lord, this pig who robs me of my wife, then I refute his embrace. I will carve a new God for us all. Such madness, such a fool I was. If such blasphemous ravings had remained within me, I would be damned. But even here, I feel the machine throb beneath the flags and I know my path awaits me... A Cryptic Clue
Some kind of mechanism. A secret and infernal one no doubt. The missing candlestick is clearly the answer. But why, this I cannot fathom. Why hide secret machines in a place of prayer? And where are the faithful? Why are there drag marks about the altar, as if someone was pulled away? Infernal Machinery
The engine fires, the flames are stoked. I hear steam in the walls, vibrations upon the very air. My heart falters at the prospect of throwing the lever and exposing the workings of this dark contraption. But my children beckon me on and I cannot fail them! A Hellish Portal
It appears I have no choice. Thus I descend and may God have mercy upon my soul. If this is my Bedlam, and I am to be cast as Matthews, then I will wear that mantle for the sake of my boys, and face whatever horrors lie beneath the altar. The Mandus Processing Company
My soul shudders at what I have seen, but at last I have reached the main part of the factory. Now onwards, downwards, to find those floodwaters and drain them away. Like Moses, I will cleave the waters and lift my little darlings clear of its vile cradle. Lily's Arms are Made of Steel, Lily's Arms are Silent
The pistons are silent, the plant is at rest. I must poke the hornest's nest to open my way, I fear. The scale of these engines suggests a far greater works than is visible from the surface, so my friend must be correct and the larger part of this plant is underground. We are close to the Thames, no wonder flooding is such a risk. Fire and Steel
The fires are stoked. Assuming the same architect is responsible here as with the chemical plant, I surmise that a centralised control system regulates and operates the pistons. It should be a simple matter of finding it, and hoping the saboteur relented after simply extinguishing the fires. The Descent Continues!
What did the dark voice instruct me to do? Under the pistons, into the tunnels and on to the bilge pumps. And if the doors should be locked, I will have to find another means of descent. I cannot trust him, but my path is set. I shall ignore those noises... that snuffling, those shuffling steps below me, I will brave whatever lurks beneath and I will save them! Sabotage!
Bruised and battered, but alive. I have survived the saboteur's best efforts. He and I are now locked in an epic struggle. But I am driven to find my family, and I will prevail. Ignore the madness about me, do not consider what cruel and unspeakable acts have been commited here. Find the way to the bilge, drain the flood, free your children. Maintenance Access
There is clearly another passage beyond the locked gates. It seems I have a choice of approach. The padlock is old but firm, and after that fall, I cannot summom the strength to break it open. Perhaps I can find another way... The Centrifuge
It's some form of bizarre mixing device for chemical compunds, and it positively reeks of the fool fluids I have seen too often before. It is clearly a compound, some volatile bastard of two composite ingredients. I should wager I would find them close by. A Heady Brew
I have the compound. It hisses and steams in its container like some living thing, a witches jelly to burn and corrode. The container is made frm glass - a strange choice unless there is somo particular reason why the metal that pervades everywhere else cannot be brought into contact with this so-called Compound X. I should investigate further for clues. The Flooded Tunnels
My mysterious friend is correct, the sewers are indeed flooded. To descend further I will have to find the local sluice pumps to drop the water levels. The smell is almost unbearable, it makes me gag. Why should the saboteur have flooded the tunnels though? What did he hope to achieve? Mandus, postdiluvian
That's done it! Now I can enter the strange decontamination chamber once again and move onwards! the waters are pushed back, making the way to the bilge clear, where I can divert the remainder of this filthy torrent back into the Thames where it belongs and clear the path to the centre of the machine. A Nest of Wretches
Dear God, a whole nest of these foul creatures... no mind, my instincts have drawn me thus far and I am sure somewhere in this dank complex is a means of further descent. I will not see their faces as they go about their dark business. And yet... and yet, I watch them sleep and eat and play and they are so very human, so very childlike. And I will not think of what I have seen, of the chairs and the cages, and I will not think of how such monsters may be sculpted. The Pump Rooms
These must be the bilge pumps. I am at the heart of the saboteur's efforts. In order to keep his flood in place, he must have disabled these vast pumps. But he was clearly rushed, thus far he has left must of his work incomplete, his clumsy efforts reduced to simply switching off all he could find, if I can locate the controls, the remedy will be simple. Valves and Pipes
Another pump. It seems once again I must engage it. I cannot help but feel I am trapped in some great game, forced to undertake endless herculean labors for the promised reward of my darling children! Finding the Children
The flood is drained. I have prevailed. The saboteur is beaten. My heart pounds with excitement, even as my held spins and shudders in feverous anticipation. How this machine now throbs about me, sensing its rebirth is imminent. The final descent beckons me to enter, as Lily once lay on our wedding bed summoned me into manhood. The Heart of the Machine
And when they first said "Daddy" my heart was molten, as if blood frozen upon the ground were held to the sun to thaw and slop. And they were inseperable, always together, one soul in two bodies, and my love was all consuming. I would set this world to ruin to protect you. I have fought through dark tunnels, great engines, the foulest of beasts. I have set my covenant and drained this flood, and I am come for you now, my darling boys. A final Act of Sabotage
The bastard has been here too! This is the epicentre of his meddlings - this is where it began, and this is where it will end. I will seek the source of this obstruction and then I will render this sabotage impotent once and for all! Ignition Control!
Now to find the ignition controls and start the machine once more! Elated, I stride forth upon these carwalks. I am coming my darlings, I have almost saved you! Betrayed!
So it is done. The saboteus was me, and the voice on the telephone was him. But what of us? How do we connect? Surely I cannot be responsible for all I see about me? I cannot remember, I cannot remember! All I can grasp is a moment when the world split into two pieces and the innards of humanity fell from an orifice torn into my open, bifurcated heart. Escape through the pipes
If the throes of my evil, I sent children into the pipes to clean them, then it seems likely there is another entrance I can use to escape this noxious maelstrom of engines. I will ignore the burning in my nostrils from the fumes of that godless Compound X that fuels these machines, and I will become the saboteur - I will destroy the pressure system, enabling me to enter the pipes without fear! Steam Vents
All about me, the thunder of machinery, the blast of boiling steam. I cannot pass without fear of scalding. I am a lubster, cracked, my circulation stagnated, my vital motions impeded. The steam will boil my whole unless I can find a way to shut it off. Mandus is the Saboteur!
It seems that the pressure system is indeed the Achilles Heel of this facility, something I clearly did not realise in my first clumsy attempt at sabotage. If I re-route the steam, I can wreak havoc! The Pressure Regulator
Some form of steam regulator - I'll wager if I disable it, the damage caused by the rushing steam pressure could be catastrophic - certaily enough to force a temporary stalling of this entire engine. That should cause the steam pressure to drop. Mandus, you clever old goat, I can feel this horror, this grief, this betrayal buil into fury. I will not stand, I will not be undertrodden. If this machine is my air loom, I am the overman. Into the Pipes and out of the Engines
Now quickly, through the pipes before the pressure returns and they fill with boiling corrosive steam - I sense the machine snarl itself about me, its unholy, inhuman mind coil and slick and send its dark tendrils through its conduits to repair the damage. I will return to the streets, I will fetch help, and I shall lead the people upon the factory, burn it to the ground, and seal this evil place underground forever! London's Burning, London's Burning
God forgive me, what I have unleashed! I stand and smell the burning city. I see ash upon the wind. I hear the roars of the sickening beasts and the screams as they fall upon the city and drag its people below for the slaughter. Now I begin to understand what the other composite ingredient of Compound X must be. And I also understand this: it is my responsabilityd now. I must find a way back to the heart of the machine and complete what I started! Streets and Alleys
There are too many of these damnations, these beasts loose on the street to all have come from the engine rooms! As I emerged, I counted three of the damnable pneumatic lifts, which suggests the machine has been planning this for some time, smuggling routes to the surface all about this neighbourhood. If my bearings are correct, beyond the alley I should stand directly over the ignitions rooms - and I will wager that if I find a pneumatic there, it will carry me back to the machine's heart. Counter-Attack!
I have returned, an angel of vengeance, a saboteur once more! I will find a way to stop this vast enterprise of slaughter! Enough destruction opened the heart before, confused the machine enough to spring its locks and secret doorways. I must cause it great shock, stab its eyes, poke hot into its ears, hammer to its teeth and push glass into every orifice. Then it will gasp and in that gasp, I will scuttle into its throat and stab its heart from inside! At the Spark Plug
This eletrification must be lethal to the touch - now to confound the machine and flood the system, this time not with sewage but builing, sparking liquid death! Compound X and the Coolant Tanks
This vile concoction, this Compound X, it is the arterial blood of this horror. Boiled, it creates the steam to drive pistons, but here, it is freezing, and flows about the components to keep them cool. Why should it be that the deeper I go, the cooler it becomes? What great process generates such heat that the machine must quench it with a cocktail of blood and effluent? Coolant Pumps
I sense an opportunity, my first strike. Impeding these cogs with a large enough objects should jam the flow of coolant, causing a pressure build up that will split the pipes and rupture the tanks. The Path to the Tripery
It is critically injured now, I am sure of that. It jeers no more. I feel it shudder around me, a wounded animal pressed flat to the ground. I feel it is afraid of me, and I hate it all more, as I hate myself for unleashing it. My head pounds with blood, my teeth vibrate, I retch and burn with fever. I am an angel of death, descending to smother the firstburn for the death of the two that came after. Im My Dreams I walk with my Children
I walk tunnels where no human has trod before, I am sure of that. It is just me and him now. Frost forms on my coat sleeves, the deathly still and the freezing air tell me I am close. Mandus is Alone
I search for instructions, for advice, for help in my goals, but in return the system mocks me. Simpleton, it says, you must find your own answers now,
(09-13-2013, 11:26 AM)Kein Wrote: If you played DD then you would know that Shadow isn't a cunning and smart beast like the Machine, it is brutal, ruthless and primordial. transcend being that devours and destroys everything around. It has no interest in playing silly games with Oswald or constructing some weird machine for pigs. You took orb? You used its powers? You pay the price, end of story.
I agree, however Shadow had an agenda regardless of this. It attempted to drown Daniel during his trip back home, and then changed its mind (or played a game, to show him, he casts a shadow). It also allowed Agrippa to live after he found an orb, while a lot of other people weren't this fortunate (just as if the Shadow had long-term plans for those he'd left alive).
I'm not surprised that Agrippa was an exception, considering who he was. But Mandus is out of his league and I explained why few pages back:
Quote:From Amnesia: DD we know that only someone who mentally and spiritually strong can actually control and use orb without consequences (like Weyer and Alexander). Daniel was weak and thus Shadow begun to hunt him (he even didn't use Orb, he was just around it!). And let is be honest, Mandus is far less strong person, in terms of mental condition (he pretty much went full bonkers after Lily's death), than Daniel.
Anyone could tell me where i can see the 2 missing monster scenes, we saw in the trailers? I was rly looking forward to play this part and then it gets removed ...
The question that will never be answered: SOMA WHY ARE YOU SO BEAUTIFUL? ;_;
I would strongly advise against interpretations that err on the side of literal. The only take on the situation we get is from Mandus, and even if I didn't think he was almost completely incoherently mad I would still bet there was bias to be found in his accounts. Hell, maybe NOTHING in the game literally happens, we have no way of knowing. The notes not made by Mandus could have just been things he dreamed up. So I don't think we need things like 'astral projection' to explain what's going on. I think the main character's less than stellar mental health is explanation enough for a lot of discrepancies and inconsistencies.
Keeping that in mind, here are my theories:
Spoiler below!
The great uncle he refers to is Daniel. He mentions his uncle having journals of travels to several locations. It's not too big of a leap to attribute this to Daniel given his diary of his trip to Algeria and his quest to find answers regarding the Orb he found there. I'm not saying Alexander cannot be related to Oswald, but I don't like that theory much, given that we're not even sure Alexander qualifies as...well, human. And it wouldn't surprise me if old Alex arranged for the blame for it all to fall on Daniel in case their experiments couldn't be completed.
This is one that's been just about nailed down by every one here, but:
Spoiler below!
The egg Oswald mentions is in fact an Orb that he finds in Mexico. The orb shows him the future, and this vision of the future makes him go mad.
On the nature of the Egg, Mandus, and the Engineer:
Spoiler below!
One thing we can be clear on is that Mandus is cut in two at some point: one part of him that regrets and wants to forget all that he's done, and one part of him that revels in it. The latter part is the Engineer. The way I see it, there are a couple of different ways we can view the Engineer's true nature.
1) The Engineer is another facet of Mandus's personality that is brought to a life separate from him via the power of the Orb.
2) The Engineer is another facet of Mandus's personality that is merely imagined up by Mandus. A personality he projects out of himself do to his horror and self-loathing. When he's talking on the phone, there is no other voice. The voice we hear is inside his head.
3) The Engineer is a separate entity from Mandus altogether that is either the consciousness of the Orb itself or a being from the world of the Orbs that uses it as a conduit to get to Mandus.
As for this point that was brought up:
(09-13-2013, 09:28 AM)Kein Wrote: Either way, if we seriously take into account theory with Orb, then there is a bigger issue - the Shadow. From Amnesia: DD we know that only someone who mentally and spiritually strong can actually control and use orb without consequences (like Weyer and Alexander). Daniel was weak and thus Shadow begun to hunt him (he even didn't use Orb, he was just around it!). And let is be honest, Mandus is far less strong person, in terms of mental condition, than Daniel. So here is the question - where is the Shadow then? Are we going to deny the fact that game set is in the same universe? If not then rules are unchanged.
One of the theories I remember about the Orb from TDD was that it wasn't interested in killing Daniel until he wanted to use it. His colleagues who were researching it at his behest and were subsequently killed could've found out about the Orb's potential for power and planned to use it in a way that displeased its guardian. While Daniel has nightmares, it isn't until he meets Alexander and starts working with the thing that there is any tangible proof (Castle filled with slime, anyone?) that the Shadow wants to kill him.
If Mandus is in possession of an Orb...is he using it? Or is it merely affecting him and the world (the tangible one or the one of his imagination) without him actually having to consciously use it?
(09-13-2013, 12:37 PM)BossPiggy Wrote: Anyone could tell me where i can see the 2 missing monster scenes, we saw in the trailers? I was rly looking forward to play this part and then it gets removed ...
Where you can see it? What do you mean? You already said it, they cut it out.
(09-13-2013, 12:37 PM)BossPiggy Wrote: Anyone could tell me where i can see the 2 missing monster scenes, we saw in the trailers? I was rly looking forward to play this part and then it gets removed ...
Very unlikely it's actually in the game. They also created a "fake" setpiece for the Dark Descent trailer so as not to ruin a good part in the final game.
No one answered my question yet abotu why the level design changes as you're walking through it? Rooms and paths seem to form as you walk through certain areas and it happens once or twice in the game especially in the centrifuge mixing place.
You enter one hallway and when you turn to come back out through it it's all changed.
The Chinese Room did a great job making this game.
Contrarily at what people is saying, (I'm referring at the lack of scariness), when I played it I've been constantly terrified by the environment's sounds and by the possibilities that something could have happen.
But I have to say that I really enjoyed the story and the magistral's story telling.
(09-13-2013, 01:18 PM)jacksepticeye Wrote: No one answered my question yet abotu why the level design changes as you're walking through it? Rooms and paths seem to form as you walk through certain areas and it happens once or twice in the game especially in the centrifuge mixing place.
You enter one hallway and when you turn to come back out through it it's all changed.
I think nobody knows yet. Maybe someone/something wanted to lead him to the wrong/right way? I do not know, it doesn't make sense.
(This post was last modified: 09-13-2013, 01:43 PM by Draug.)
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[SPOILER] Plot Discussion Thread *Spoiler Alert*
