A Diskussion about "regenerative health" in horror games.

[Oscar House]

@Oscar House here is what I do not understand... why can't people enjoy a game that has something they don't like in it?!

What do you mean by that? I'm pretty sure anyone would have a hard time naming any game that was perfect for them in every respect.

[the dark side]

what variety? sorry, but, these days i cannot tell any difference between COD and Shooter x and shooter Y, same mechanics (boring) same controlls, same story, same anything, tell me were there is some actual gameplay vartiety and not a direct gameplay copy of call of duty (outside serious sam 3) and i will beleive you.

I'm not talking a game being so challenging it makes you want to scoop your eyes out, although i wouldnt mind that (cough, ARMA, cough), i'm just saying i want a game were its actually possible to die! im not saying you should die from say, a single round hitting you, that would make even me go "sod it!" and play something else, i'm saying you should be able to die if you really mess up, like trying to take on 500 spec-naz with only a Tokorov T33 handgun! with regen, no matter how badly you mess up, you can survive, to die, you basically have to walk off the side of a train (except you cant, because of the invisble walls, let me make mistakes for goodness sakes, how else am i supposed to learn?). it bores me, how can i have fun when im bored, because im bored of being coddled.

I mean, i wouldnt mind these cod clones if there was one or 2 Proper games out a year instead of one in six years for those of us who dont like easy games. but there isnt, its all cod clones, there is about one proper game out every 4 years now. its ridiculous!
i personally cannot look past it, because it makes the game too easy even on hard, and easy games bore me to death. i want more than just "shooting" from point a to b on a waypointed corridor as well, that is repetitive as sin, i want to explore the map, i want to find items, i want to solve puzzles, i want to drive a vehicle in a free roam map, i want to find the objectives myself, not just follow a polyp, i want to be made to remember the controlls! (im sick of "press return to reload", "press and hold return to swap ak for mp5", "press and hold return to plant bomb", press "space to open the door" every 5 seconds!, stop-patronizing-me!) i want to feel im playing a game, not taking part in a shooting gallery crossed with a scwartzenegger movie.

basically, something like a NOLF-2 with modern graphics is what i am after, challenging, but not frustrating, and Varied, stealth, RPG, Vehicles, shooting, platforming, puzzle solving, item hunt, all rolled into the same game. thats what i am after. im not a masiochist, i just want to have fun.

[Kreekakon]

basically, something like a NOLF-2 with modern graphics is what i am after, challenging, but not frustrating, and Varied, stealth, RPG, Vehicles, shooting, platforming, puzzle solving, item hunt, all rolled into the same game. thats what i am after. im not a masiochist, i just want to have fun.

Not every game is Skyrim you know, and to be honest it wouldn't be very interesting if it was.

Games all have aspects in them, some have these, others have others. The health regenerating is one of them. Puzzles, and items are another. Whether, or not a game is for you is partially affected by which of these aspects you enjoy.

The most important thing still is the EXECUTION of said aspects. Say a game with regenerating health with excellent execution is released. Sure I never die, but do I care? No, because even without dying the game is still fun as hell. I do not need to die to realize the difficulty of the game, nor does a game need to be sufficiently challenging to be fun. Whether, or not a game is boring is dependent of the execution of all the game's aspects, not whether, or not one of them is simply there (In this case regenerating health)

Also, another thing I noticed in your post dark side is that you're complaining about the on-screen instructions for things like reload, or switching weapons. I can buy the fact if you want to find the objectives yourself. I can respect you with that. But the prompts for interactions? It works the same with Amnesia's "hand" except with words. It's just there to remind you what you can do in a game, it has nothing to do with meaningful difficulty. I can't see how that would rub you the wrong way.

Also:

there is about one proper game out every 4 years now. its ridiculous!

Holy Jesus, I don't even want to know what type of standards you have if you're serious about this.

[Kman]

Yeah I'm sorry Dark Side but, if the only reason people made games was to be challenging then not only would the game industry lose any sort of economic value, but there would be so much potential in that form of media that's lost. I honestly feel bad for you in a way, you're missing out on a lot of really great games because you're so focused on them being challenging. Amnesia is not only the scariest games I've played, but it's also one of the most immersive ones. I felt so many more emotions than I normally do playing a horror game, on top of that the story is nothing short of amazing. You're missing out on so much if you're just focusing on how challenging it is. And I have to say this now, no, it would not function as a graphic novel or web comic. It would lose a TON of the immersion, emotions, and just overall quality of the story.

And I just thought I should bring this up, there have been plenty of great games in the last few years, you're just not looking past AAA releases. If you get into more indie titles, or even past the shooter scene of big budget games there are plenty of great games that have come out recently. Your problem is you're only looking at the big releases, I could even name a few really great shooters that have either came out or been very relevant in the gaming community in the last year alone that I'm sure would offer enough challenge.

You don't seem to be taking in what the majority of people want from a game though to be honest, like I said if all games were super intense and very hard then the gaming industry would fail. There's a very small crowd that actually enjoys that kind of stuff (I actually do myself, when it's done in the right situations). With that said, there's also many people that play games for the story, many that play them just to mindlessly shoot everything to shit, etc. My point is, you're basically saying "If a game doesn't have the type of gameplay I enjoy then it's automatically bad and shouldn't even be a game", and I'm sorry, but that's incredibly narrow minded. Entertainment is specific to the person that's experiencing said media, so saying "If this game isn't 'x', then it isn't entertaining" can't be applied to everyone's taste and every title in a certain form of media like you did.

[darkely]

I like a challenge occasionally but not always... sometimes I just like to sit down and play a fairly laid back game just for fun.

@Dark Side as others have said you are indeed missing out on a lot of great games in fun if all you want is a hard game…

what variety? sorry, but, these days i cannot tell any difference between COD and Shooter x and shooter Y, same mechanics (boring) same controlls, same story, same anything, tell me were there is some actual gameplay vartiety and not a direct gameplay copy of call of duty (outside serious sam 3) and i will beleive you.

Games that meet the description (that are unique)...

-Painkiller (all) - standard shoot em' up but it uses health packs (not regenerating), AI can be very dull or smart, and graphics (not a big issue for me) are dated but gameplay is great.

screen...


-Hard Reset - a futuristic shooter (you have health packs and a regenerating shield (it regenerates slowly though), enemy's are very challenging and fun to kill, and overall the graphics are great (again not a big priority for me but it is still nice eye candy).

screen...

[Kreekakon]

On the thread's topic at hand, I would like to add my own simple opinion on it:

I do not mind regenerative health in horror games, because my fear is based off of my environmental surroundings mental effect on me, not the abundance, or lack of HP.

^Simply put.

[the dark side]

@kreekaron, the "hand" icon in amnesia is something i actually really like, thats actually the way i want prompts, you see i dont mind the "prompts", i mean, after all, nolf 2 has "open" on things you can open, its just the "Press- to-" that winds me up, i wouldn't be so angry if you could turn them off and jsut have "the prompt" without the "controll hint", look, im mildly dyselxic, so i take some pride in the fact i can actually read the manual myself, and being told i dont have to read the manual kind of spits on that acheivement, and that sends me wild! i dont mind the prompts, its the fact it shows you what key to press, every, single, time, that is what winds me up! i know what key to press, i dont need telling every, 4, seconds.

you see not having prompts, in my opinion, can be as bad as having too many, as then the game goes from challenging, to frustrating, thats as bad as being too easy, i want some prompts, yes, but i dont want to be told the controll for the action after the tutorial level, and even in the tutorial i only want to be shown the controll key Once, instead of "Press Space to Open" all i want is "Open". thats not too much to ask, surely.

my standards arnt all that strict, i just want a game that isnt a clone of cod. i mean, ok, this year hasnt been bad with at least 3 games that meet my standards, Serious sam 3, Hard Reset and Max Payne 3 coming out, wich were actually challenging and fun to play (you can actually die if you play like an idiot), ok Mp3 had its issues, such as the gun limit (but at least you could turn the dynamic scaling and controll hints "OFF" its why i want that in more games, if that one can do it, why not the others) and the overdose of cutscenes, but it was proper fun!. its just 90% of games coming out are just clones of cod. and its been quite a few years between this years heaven sent crop of proper games and the last crop (wich came out in 2008!)

@kman. i think people have got the wrong idea,. im not that good at explaining things, a challenging game to me is something that requires the player to do things for themself and were the player can fail, something like PD64, im not asking for everything to be like Arma, the industry would fail then,and it would deserve to, for being too elitist, just as surely as its going to fail due to the overdose of cod clone games, look, sales of AAA games are plummeting, companies are posting Minus fiqures in terms of profits, we are heading for a much needed games crash.

i am interested in the indie scene kman, can you give me the titles and sites for a few of the games you think i might be interested in (just remember, if theres non optional dynamic scaling, Aim down sites or health regen, its a no go, ADS because i cant cope with them, they "set my autism off", scaling because it forces ADS, and regen cause it bores me) as i really am looking for some good new games, my old games, well, are getting old, and im worried about the disks wearing out because they are getting very hard to source!

i am taking into account what people want, like i said, im not calling for everthing to be ARMA, that would be Insanity! im just calling for a return to the PD-64 days, and seeing as the HD relaunch of that game has been a smash hit on XBLA you cannot tell me a game like that wouldnt sell now, (also, Serious sam 3 has done very well on steam, outselling several cod clones so please dont tell me there is no room for "old school", not with DOOM 3 (and doom 1 and 2 getting a HD makeover) getting relaunched in HD soon) yes, i am very narrow minded, ill admit to it, im autistic, things to me are a case of "its x or y. if its not x, it is y, and y is rubbish" thats the way my brain is wired and there is nothing i can do about it, i really have to remind people to kindly keep that in mind. i just dont see what is so wrong with "old school", why it appears to be a crime now to want or make a game that doesnt have Regen health, gun limits, ADS, dynamic scaling, and all that patronizing "hint" stuff, i honestly dont. all i want is an explanation in plain, simple english, that doesnt read to me like "fobb off fobb off, we are too lazy to make a decent game so we just aim at the lowest common denominator" (hello e3 hosts) thats not too much to ask is it? an explanation as to why so many companies keep making "cod clones" despite the fact more old school games wich have old style gameplay, allow the player to fail and allow the player to do things for themself! such as serious sam 3, max payne 3, etc, are finally and thankfully prooving to be More popular than cod clones again, at least on PC anyway!

@ darkley,. i am feeling an IDIOT! sorry, Hard Reset and Painkiller are 2 of my favourite games, and are the sort of game i want to see being made more often, i mean, they were both very popular games, sales in the 4 million mark, each...so its beyond me why games like them are so rare now...i mean, they proove games like that can be made today and sell in Large numbers,...so why do companies still insist on cloning cod when you can make a game like painkiller, hard reset, serious sam, et al, and still make a big profit?

I dont think i explained myself properly, im not too good at explaining things. a "Hard game" isn't what i really want, i want a challenging game, a game where it is possible to fail, and makes you think, and do things for yourself, let me put it like this, "PD64=challenging, ARMA=hard" does that help explain what i mean and what i am after a little bit better?

@ all i really want to know what on earth is going on in the games industry in a way i can understand, because, ive got my own IP, its very old fashioned, i have developer interest, but, i've hit a sticky wicket, a kickstarter budget won't cover it (i got an accountant uncle to do the sums, they dont add up) so i need a AA budget at least, and the publishers just say "it wont sell in america on consoles because its too out of date and isnt like call of duty!" (genuine excuse) and its Really starting to wind me up! i dont care about america! i just care about making a good game!

[Hunter of Shadows]

And the stupidity continues...

[Kreekakon]

i just dont
see what is so wrong, why it appears to be a crime now to want or make a
game that doesnt have Regen health, gun limits, ADS, dynamic scaling,
and all that patronizing "hint" stuff

The problem is that you have to acknowledge the fact that it's okay for these things to be in games, and work out alright at being fun if it's EXECUTED correctly. That's the golden rule of gameplay elements.

[the dark side]

i know that, but again, why is it such a "crime" for the old fashioned mechanics to be used in other games?, why do companies think that it "has to be a clone of cod or it wont sell!", i mean, the old school mechanics are just as OK as modern ones, and can be every bit as fun if executed correctly, and every bit as bad if incorrectly executed ie, a shortage of medpacks and health that is gone super fast, ie, a Mishandled health system is every bit as horrible as a super easy health system that regens too fast and has too much top end reserve.

what i want to know is, why is it OK for games to use the modern systems, but its Not ok for other games to use the old ones?, why does it have to be "Cod mechanics or nothing" in todays industry?

The old systems are still every bit as valid, yet games companies seem to think they are worthless and its impossible to make something fun with them, when its perfectly easy when they are executed right. thats what i really want to know?

why is my game considered to be "inferior" to a cod clone when its every bit as valid! why is it spat on by the companies simply for not being like call of duty? thats my real question.