A Diskussion about "regenerative health" in horror games.

**Kreekakon** · 07-29-2012, 10:13 PM

(07-29-2012, 10:06 PM)the dark side Wrote: why is my game considered to be "inferior" to a cod clone when its every bit as valid! why is it spat on by the companies simply for not being like call of duty? thats my real question.

I never said that. Old systems can work just as well as the "COD ones". What you did earlier was bringing down the "COD gamplay elements". I'm just bringing them back up to tell you that gameplay elements are all equal, and their execution is the main goal.

**the dark side** · 07-29-2012, 10:20 PM

you have misunderstood kreekaron!, i know you didnt say that, and i agree with you, every game mechanic is equal if its handled right, to be honest, even I would rather have regen health that has been handled really well than a medpack system that has been done really badly and makes the game impossible.

i want to know why the games PUBLISHERS, the "Industry" seem to think my game is "inferior" and spit on it because it used old fashioned mechanics, despite interest from developers, instead of COD style ones, and just give a lame excuse like "it wouldnt sell in america" or "it wouldnt work with kinekt". its the Publishers, people like THQ, Ubisoft, ETC who are treating it as inferior, the games industry, and i want to know why! what is so bad about a throwback, why do the publishers think any game that takes place in first person HAS to have regenerating health, and or other call of duty elements, no its no buts ? what is the problem that people like 2K, THQ, Ubisoft, EA, Et al, the publishers, have with games that are not direct clones of COD?

**darkely** · 07-30-2012, 12:28 AM

(07-29-2012, 09:50 PM)Hunter of Shadows Wrote: And the stupidity continues...

Come on don't call others stupid Undecided

**Froge** · 07-30-2012, 02:09 AM

(07-29-2012, 07:18 PM)the dark side Wrote: Sorry if this makes me sound Harsh or Nasty, but, if they wanted to focus on the Story, then, why didnt they just make a web comic or Interactive Graphic Novel?

A game without challenge, to me, personally, isn't really a game, its a tutorial, and boring. i'm not getting nasty with frictional, i can see why they wanted to focus on the Story, its a Duesie! great charachters, intelligent, superbly written, great dialoque and brown trousers time scary, but, if they are not going to have challenge, perhaps "gaming" isn't really the correct media platform.

No challenge, No Entertainment, No Entertainment, No game. its the same with call of duty or battlefeild, no challenge, just loads of massive setpeices that make it exiting as heck to watch, but brain numbingly boring to play. they would be absolutely brilliant as movies (Sean Connery (Price), Jason Statham (Gaz) and Micheal Fassbender (Soap) for COD movie?) but as games, ugggh, no no no!.

Everything has a place yes, but very Little has a place as a game now in my opinion, because its all designed to be as easy as possible so as to appeal to "new players", and that is boring, if you are not willing to have challenge, dont make a game, it is as simple as that, make a movie or a virtual novel.

if you have a great and involving storyline, then people will play it too its end no matter how hard the game is, look at the first 2 Max Payne titles, hard as nails, and people still played them because the storylines were epic, making a game easy when people will play it no matter how hard it is, because the story is awesome, is "dumbing down!" and that, to me, is a crime agaisnt gaming!

im with leon kennedy, too many medpacks is as bad as regenerating health, and regenerating health is a game ruiner (in all genres! it is not necessary, its dumbing down) as they remove the challenge, i'm sorry, but, if you dont want a challenge, then go watch a movie, i am sick and tired of having my hobby ruined for the sake of people who can't cope with a bit of difficulty so everything gets turned into call of duty in order to appease them because the industry hasnt got the guts to tell them were to get off because it has become so greedy it cannot see that this continual dumbing down so as to appeal to the widest possible audience has taken us back on the same "rushed out casual game for christmass" path that caused the great games crash of 1983, and will cause another crash!

as far as im concerned, a stand alone tutorial, a cut down "tourist" or "super easy mode" (that only offers half the game) and a quick controll reference sheet on the back of the manual were More than good enough to help the "new players" out before modern warfare got popular in 2006, so its still good enough now, everything else is "dumbing down", wich is the mark of greed!

if its not challenging, its not a game, and should have been made as a virtual novel or webcomic instead. okay, thats just my own personall opinion, and i expect 90% of people will disagree with it rather strongly, but, thats the way i am, a died in the wool old school hardcore gamer, and im beyond changing, so either gaming needs to change (wich it will in the next crash, as all the "mainstream" gamers will loose interest, just look at what happened in the last one) or i am going to need a new hobby, because gaming today, with its interest in new gamers, and its total lack of challenge, is Boring.

Personally, I'm quite disappointed with your perception of games. I'm not going to blindly spit or hate upon your opinion, but I would definitely argue with it.

Games should be treated as art. No more, no less. The only way to truly understand this is to create one yourself. I would argue that every game programmer or designer can understand that the creation of a game is like the painting of an art piece, or the composing of a grand piece of music. There's the rote work behind it - the mathematical knowledge, the ability to script, etc. - but what makes video games art is the creativity behind the making of a game, how such simple things as lines of script and mathematical statements can be welded together, like the threads of a web, to create something that is overall extraordinary. This can range from the aesthetic appeal of the graphics to the storylines, to the challenges offered and the replayability and the wit of each level or boss and especially the settings portrayed by the music. All of this come together to create something special for the player. After all, what is art? Is it entertainment? Is it knowledge? Is it perception, a way of seeing the world from the artist's eyes? No one really knows. But good art always achieves the goal of immersion.

I'm a hardcore gamer. I love challenges, and enjoy playing brain-meltingly difficult NES-era games like Castlevania III or Ghosts n' Ghouls, and also IWBTG. But do I like those games only for their difficulty? Certainly not! There was creativity in the levels of each Castlevania Game, how they seemed to immerse you into the environment of the whole story; there was wit and aesthetic style in the design of each level (especially in SMB 3) which helped create the "Just one more level" mentality; the music makes the whole experience memorable; the whole story offered and challenge of the game can really make you sympathize with the characters you controlled. It's not only about the challenge. The best video games are art because they are so immersive.

I apply the exact same criteria in judging a game of the modern era. Amnesia was immersive. It offered not the challenge of beating the game, but rather the challenge within the mind - the stress of the horror often made me to scared to do anything but hide. The overall presentation - the graphics, the music, the story, the designs of each level - all made the experience of Amnesia wonderful, from the heart-pumping chases to the surprise attacks of each monster (e.g. Morgue = Brute). If one bases games only upon difficulty, then games become much less than art.

**Juby** · 07-30-2012, 04:12 AM

-EDIT- eh... never-mind.

**Hunter of Shadows** · 07-30-2012, 06:24 AM

Quote: As it stands, the argument has yet to hit the petty insults. This is good, all the debating; it allows learning and perhaps even friendships.

Where have you been the last 6 pages before this lol

Not why I said it though, it's definitely a credit to the dark side and everyone else that they're discussing things without it reaching any level of hostility, but this thread needs to be allowed to die, while they create a new thread elsewhere, primarily because I feel it's been tainted by the fighting earlier in the thread

**the dark side** · 07-30-2012, 07:47 PM

@DarkHunter. damn, and i gave you a bad review, can you take negative ratings down?, i jumped the gun. sorry!, it is true, this thread does seem to have become about gaming in general, and the fighting has marked it.. perhaps it should be spawned off into 2 new threads in off topic. one for games in general, the other for my own IP's mechanics and getting its mechanics sorted, many of you are very, very knowledgeable of games and mechanics, and id love some help in getting the balance right, so, although they remain resolutly old school they can hit that perfect difficulty balance sweetspot, were its 20 times harder thean call of duty, but 50 times easier than ARMA, the "pd64" zone as i call it.

@ chronofox, mate, i am actually trying to make my own game, ive got storylines for at least 12, ive got mechanics partially sorted (but not balanced, i need help there!), i have all the charachters, have the IP registered and copywrited 100% to me with total creative controll exclusive to me... and i cant get the flaming publishers interested, despite tons of interested developers (including gearbox!) because "it wont sell in america" or some other lame excuse, because its quite old fashioned and the publishers only want to finance COD-clones,.(and please, dont say "kickstarter" , i got my uncle, who is an accountant, to do the sums, the maximum possible kickstarter budget falls short of what i need to sustain the game by at least £1,000,000) i need a pro publisher for a AA budget, and they dont want to know, perhaps im trying the wrong ones! any publishers any of you think might be interested in a single player only (until game 2 comes out, multiplayer will be added to game 1 in a free patch that will come with game 2 that will have MP from go) old school Espionage FPS with a posh British main star?

now, i understand that some people have misinterpreted what i mean by "challenge" and i dont mind people misinterpreting it, i misinterpret people all the time, so, i dont mind it if people get me wrong. i have this view on it "PD64=challenging, ARMA=Hard" i want a game to be more than just challenging gameplay, yes, its just, being a gamer from the old days, i put gameplay first, i know you do as well chronofox, but you have the luxury of being neurologically typical, i dont, being someone with aspegers i have rigid interests, a strong dislike of any change, and a brain that runs on intense "one or zero" logic, literally like a computer, sadly that leaves me unable to be so flexible with games. i do try to play more modern games but, my autism flares up because of the modern mechanics, and thats it, i cant play anymore because i get angry as heck and go into melt-down.
i wish i could be flexible like a normal person, but i cannot, so, i have to make do with being rigid.

ill be honest,. i thaught amneisa and penumbra were very, very. v-e-r-y good games, they had superb level design, a great atmosphere, some awesome shocks, and beautifully written storylines, its just, for me, and me alone probably, the use of a cod mechanic, the health regeneration, caused my autism to flare up, wich meant i didnt enjoy the game as much as i could have were it not for that issue.

to me a game is many facets, yes, gameplay challenge is the prime one, but storyline is a direct second! followed by level design, intelligence of gameplay, etc, with sound and graphics coming dead last.

my favourite games are those that combine perfectly balanced gameplay challenge with intelligent puzzles, great gameplay mechanics, superb level designs, great storylines, etc, stuff like max payne, castlevania, resident evil 2, NOLF series, Elite Force II, etc. those are the great games for me. that tick all the boxes.

indeed, i love castlevania to for the fact it wasnt "just" challenging gameplay, that helped it rank well, but what helps it up to near the top the list, is actually pretty much what helps it top the list for you, the gorgeous artwork, the sense of care that went into it (missing from pretty much all the aaa games now sadly) the eccentric sense of humour, the clever storytelling, it all adds up. to me a game like amnesia or penumbra, that has great level design, a superb story, and is unique, is a "great game" okay, my moaning about regen health may make it seem otherwise, but trust me, its a great game, its just that to me, a great game isnt quite good enough, i want an awesome game, and an awesome game is a game that offers all that was great about games like amnesia, and adds in a challenge on top. consider challenge to be "the cherry on the top of the cake" for me.

@ darkeley thanks for the recoomendation darkeley, that looks really good, ill give that a go, thank you very much Big Grin

(sorry for the smile, i know they are considered a troll thing but, i just want to show how happy i am people have actually understood and accepted me here, that is very rare for me in forums!)

**Hunter of Shadows** · 07-31-2012, 03:05 AM

I'm confused, there's no one here named DarkHunter, and if by any chance you were referring to me, then I'm even more confused because what you said makes NO SENSE in context of anything I've ever said

**Ghieri** · 07-31-2012, 05:13 AM

Quote: budget falls short of
what i need to sustain the game by at least £1,000,000)

Holy crap man, have you ever thought about doing something... smaller? I've seen lot's of ambitious people with those kinds of things on their mind, and outright failing at it.

Seriously, have you even made a custom story? What qualifications do you have to undergo this feat?

I'm not trying to bust your bubble, it's just that I don't want to see people making the mistakes that I first made when wanting to be a game dev. Having an idea is useless unless you have the knowledge to implement it. In this case, that means at least 5 years of solid experience doing at least one thing, and a team of motivated people to do the things that you can't do.

Quote: a great game isnt quite good enough, i want an awesome game, and an
awesome game is a game that offers all that was great about games like
amnesia, and adds in a challenge on top. consider challenge to be "the
cherry on the top of the cake" for me.

I can respect that. I honestly never noticed the health regen in the game because I always had a laudanum on hand, though, so I will have to disagree. The Amnesia experience relies on the person continuing through the game with relative momentum. So difficulty wasn't really part of the base design, as the horror would have been lessened. Maybe Frictional will come up with another game that has what you are looking for? In the meantime though, seeing as it is outside the scope of the design of the game, I'll have to say it is just fine the way it is.

**the dark side** · 07-31-2012, 07:39 PM

@ Aldighieri

Qualifications in terms of storyline or development?, in terms of development, not much, a few mods here and there way back in the old counter-strike days, in terms of storyline, quite a bit, custom storylines for many games (but not amnesia or penumbra, i am only a recent convert to horror, my lack of experience would probably result in the usual lame jumpscare fest as its just not my feild of experience, wich is action-thriller) , a few published short stories in local newspapers and magazines, nothing international as of yet though.

i understand you concern, but, i havn't had outright failure though, outright failure is No one looks at it, and that isnt the case, as i said, i have interested developers, and some pretty impressive ones (starbreeze, gearbox, remedy, crytek Uk (back when they were still kown as "Free Radical" though),etc) look, but, publishers dont want to know for various reasons, normally, "it wont sell in the american console market" (is the rest of the world not worth bothering with?), or "it will be too hard for todays gamers" (proove it!) the IP is in fact well over 6 years old, hence the 12 stories. the cost is high due to the following issues,

1. Graphical Fidelity, people want good graphics today, if you dont have good graphics, and by that im talking unreal 3 quality at least, you wont sell! they also want top quality, fluid, animation, wich requires Mocap and face scanning, wich costs massive money for actors, mocap equipment, stuntmen, a gymnasium, etc.

2. Mutliplatform porting, its PC lead development and launch platform as demanded by the copyright lease, but its open to console porting once its been out on pc for at least 4 months before the console port is started, to make more money and allow for really good sequals.

3. voice over cast ,even relative unknowns dont come cheap, and in a game that is heavilly story driven, bad voice acting is a game wrecker, so you need people with experience of videogame voice overs... and people like Adam Blackwood charge a very pretty penny for there experience

4. Quality Assurance testing, i refuse to put my name on anything that has avoidable glitches or programming issues,

5. Content amount, 26 chapters, some as long as 9 hours per chapter...and that is game one alone.

6. paying the wages of high profile developers, people like randy pitchford have been in the industry many years, and demand a big paycheck as a result,

7. getting it marketed and advertised, too many greart games have flopped due to next to no advertising,

8. paying the press to come and take a look at a game that probably wont interest them because its so different to COD, and many press reviewers these days are "paid noobies" and have no experience of the Pre COD era.

9. Sound and Music. oh sure, you can be a cheapskate and just use library sounds and get the neighbours dog to roll on the keyboard while "fruity loops" is running to create the usual industry standard "wubbwubb" but, the critics and the gamers will hammer you for "ear splittingly bad music and washed out recycled sound effects" people these days want professionally scored music (i am looking and Jespyr Kyd or Rom Di Prisko.. neither is cheap because they are some of the best) and weapons sound recorded from reality, that needs an expert, a warehouse rent, health and safety officials, blank ammo, weapons rental, all costs a fortune.

i have actually cut game number 1 down considerably in order to lower the budget, using a lot of pre existing physics (via havok) removing multiplayer fuctionality, mid level save has gone in the bin ( a reliable mid level save system can take over 200,000 Pounds on its OWN to create!) , yes, all will be added to game one with patches included in sequals, as i dont beleive in making the previous game redundant, if the story is still good, and people still play, the game should be supported, its cost people money! and it still needs a good £4,000,000 total budget, to be covered,. wich makes me angry that the publishers wont accept it, the average call of duty clone costs over £10,000,000 to make the Set peices alone, let alone the Sales and Marketing stuff!, mine will only cost £4,000,000, all in, Develoment, voice overs, quality assurance, sales and marketing, the lot. considerably cheaper. yet they refuse.

I understand you want to prevent anyone from making the same mistakes you made trying to become a dev, beleive me, ive made more than one in my time. its just, im not after the position of Dev, im aftet the position of IP Holder, storyline writer, and Creative controller, the man who tells the devs what to make, the dev team comes from the established pool of pro developers, if i can ever convince a publisher to finance it.

you see, the issue isnt getting the IP developed, ive got so many pro developers interested that ill have to get them all to make demos to see who is going to do the best Job, its been a long while since the mechanics have been used so the teams may be a little "rusty" its getting the finance to get the IP put into development that is the pain because its Not a "safe" COD Clone, its a "risky" throwback. thats the issue. making soemthing "smaller" wouldnt help, sure, it may bring it to within a kickstarter budget, but even them getting the owners of the digitial distribution sites to add it to there lists will be very, very difficult, apprantly croteam had a Nightmare of a time getting people to host serious sam III downloads because they didnt want to take a "risk" on a "Throwback".

Granted, im only going as far back as the Nightfire (gamecube version), NOLF era, im not going as far back as the DOOM, DN3D era, but it seem that publishers go into "make excuses and look at pictures of ponies!" mode as soon as anything that goes back to the mechanics from before "modern warfare" lands on there mat.

i just dont see what there problem is, ive spent years creating this, working out mechanics, balancing the gameplay (there is nothing worse than a mishandled health system regardless of wich type it may be), creating storylines, researching polotics, environments, social econmics, (everything has been researched exept the guns, as well, you can't do that reasearch in the UK due to our laws) , creating charachters, creating concept art. this isnt some "yo mek timesplittahs for yo fanz!" one line twitter proposal, this is a full blown copywrited and registered Intellectual Property with franchise rights, the only reason i can see for there being a problem is the industry is so shoved up the bottoms of a market that is predfominatnly under educated american preteenagers (if the youtube fanbase of the games is anything to go on anyway) they are scared of making anything that isnt call of duty, or exact clone therof, in case they go "diz sukz!!11!!" all over youtube.

what i want to know, and the reason why i joined the forum of a developer who will be able to provide an insight into the way the publishers think, is WHY, that problem exists, once i have that knowledge, i can manipulate the publishers into accepting the IP