[SPOILER] Plot Discussion Thread *Spoiler Alert*

[Fortigurn]

Inconsistency of the plot does not explain the leg idea...

It explains why there's a contradiction. It wouldn't be the first contradiction in the plot. The plot is not entirely watertight.

...and if we assume he replaced/could replace his foot then it is much easier just to assume the cadaver theory that was mentioned few times here. At last it is more consistent and answers some questions.

Except for the question of what this means.

Did it hurt to carve out the fevered flesh? Did it hurt to cut free the gangrenous foot?

[Nobello]

Did it hurt to carve out the fevered flesh? Did it hurt to cut free the gangrenous foot?

I feel like that's more of an analogy to something that he left behind that was 'infecting' him, or keeping him from making progress.

I like to think of it as being this as well.

Or alternatively, since the full quote was:

Mandus: "Will it hurt them?
The Machine: "A cleansing fire always burns little Mandus, but it purifies and it makes anew. Did it hurt to carve out the fevered flesh? Did it hurt to cut free the gangrenous foot? Ask instead this: Can we save them?"

I think it might also just be the Machine convincing Mandus that pain is sometimes necessary in order to save something and proceed, and not necessarily referring to Mandus himself doing one or any of those things? Or maybe referring to the pain and suffering in the coming wars, and how it will be better to just ''save'' mankind than have them cut off their flesh and feet in desperation.

Or something, maybe.

[Alardem]

Actually, I'd say it's the opposite: slaughtering a few million humans immediately was preferable to the entire human race suffering through the twentieth century that Mandus foresaw. The old 'kill thousands to save millions' idea.

Of course, if anything, Mandus has already brought about a future likely to be even worse than our past. Even if the Machine's attempt at creating a new world changed, the slaughter of countless Londoners by supernatural monsters is likely to be something that'd severely impact the twentieth century in ways different from our own.

[Ghorgul]

Actually, I'd say it's the opposite: slaughtering a few million humans immediately was preferable to the entire human race suffering through the twentieth century that Mandus foresaw. The old 'kill thousands to save millions' idea.

*SPOILER ALERT*

'kill thousands to save millions' except, I think, in this case the machine was aiming for total genocide. In the game is implied atleast several times of some kind of huge nuclear explosion + in the extra voices not heard in actual game the machine talks of huge explosion. Plus the machine has clearly a nuclear reactor (even fusion reactor?) inside, and compound x is radioactive.

After having read the whole thread and all the material from game, the general plot seems very clear to me. Only thing I can't get and is bothering me is: is Mandus is dreaming during the whole game (and doing everything inside the machine?) or is Mandus actually doing everything in real world.. And why does he suddenly gain his conscience (and control of himself?) and decide to sabotage the machine, but forget almost everything related to machine after that? And I really don't get who is supposed to be in the life support pod in the end? I would say the body is that of Mandus, but I really don't get how could he have done everything then? Or had he been using some stitched up, custom body all the time? I think it's mentioned that his veins are filled with blue water (compound x)?

*SPOILERS END*

Anyway, first post for me, had to make an account to take part in this discussion. Excellent thread with so many intriguing theories and thoughts. Cheers!

[Kein]

Except for the question of what this means.

Did it hurt to carve out the fevered flesh? Did it hurt to cut free the gangrenous foot?

The story isn't consistent. You make it sound like he cut his foot or had a gangrene but it never said anywhere nor implied. That is just your interpretation (and I already saw a better one few posts ago).

We can play these games whole day, but what the point. Better focus on more solid aspects of the story that has more core meaning.

Actually, I'd say it's the opposite: slaughtering a few million humans immediately was preferable to the entire human race suffering through the twentieth century that Mandus foresaw. The old 'kill thousands to save millions' idea.

Of course, if anything, Mandus has already brought about a future likely to be even worse than our past. Even if the Machine's attempt at creating a new world changed, the slaughter of countless Londoners by supernatural monsters is likely to be something that'd severely impact the twentieth century in ways different from our own.

I'm not even sure Machine could bring the demolition of such scale. I think it was rather some kind of target, a threat that would concentrate the whole world on it and thus all the bigs events of 1900 won't happen.

[Alardem]

Nice first post, Ghorgul! I actually agree with you that at least part of the Machine's goal was to create a Victorian-age nuke that would 'purify the world'. That explosion, however, would only be the harbinger of something much worse: a god born from death and destruction.

Also, if Mandus is drowned in 'Compound X', that would explain your nigh-invincibility and also justify why the Pigs would be a credible threat. After all, it allows life to linger on even after dismemberment. That could mean whoever was inside the 'Iron Lung' also owns the beating heart in the Tesla tower.

I'm not even sure Machine could bring the demolition of such scale. I think it was rather some kind of target, a threat that would concentrate the whole world on it and thus all the big events of 1900 won't happen.

Aside from it possessing a nuclear reactor whose 'atomic pile will run critical', do remember that the British Empire considered themselves the center of the world. Devastating London would crush England, and spark a world that, if not worse than our past, is at least drastically different. We don't know how much damage the Man-Pig attack was, but Mandus' self-sacrifice sure didn't reverse anything he'd already destroyed. Hell, the meaning of his name may not apply merely to himself (a once-great figure reduced to obscurity) but to the fate of England itself.

That's also not taking into consideration the interpretation that all this slaughter would only be the precursor to the chaos brought about by the summoning of whatever was inside that 'Stone Egg'.

[Kein]

I'm not even sure Machine could bring the demolition of such scale. I think it was rather some kind of target, a threat that would concentrate the whole world on it and thus all the big events of 1900 won't happen.

Aside from it possessing a nuclear reactor whose 'atomic pile will run critical', do remember that the British Empire considered themselves the center of the world. Devastating London would crush England, and spark a world that, if not worse than our past, is at least drastically different. We don't know how much damage the Man-Pig attack was, but Mandus' self-sacrifice sure didn't reverse anything he'd already destroyed. Hell, the meaning of his name may not apply merely to himself (a once-great figure reduced to obscurity) but to the fate of England itself.

That's also not taking into consideration the interpretation that all this slaughter would only be the precursor to the chaos brought about by the summoning of whatever was inside that 'Stone Egg'.

If we seriously take into account the hypothesis that actual Machine (not the pig-slaughtering combine itself) existed, then even considering the possibility that every new victim of Pigs was later turned into a Pigmen -- Pig-army wouldn't have enough "manpower" to overthrow whole humanity. I think we would end up with a similar to WW2 situation, where Germany (in this case GB) under the control of Hitler (Machine) was world-wide threat. Still not enough power. Unless hatching of "an egg" would mean that something extraordinary, like Chtulhu arrival, happen.

[Integria]

I've been pondering this for a while, and I figured I'd mention it. There are a lot of references to the 'end of the century' and the 'ringing in of a new century' in the game. We all seem to assume that the game takes place in 1899, considering the notes we've found.

At this point I'm tempted to point out that the 20th century doesn't actually start until the 1st of January 1901. Which leaves me wondering...

Is the game actually set a year later than we seem to be assuming, or is this simply a matter of free interpretation from the developers? Point being that if the clock is ringing in 'the new century' at the end of the game, we'd technically be hitting the 1st of January 1901.

[Fortigurn]

I think it might also just be the Machine convincing Mandus that pain is sometimes necessary in order to save something and proceed, and not necessarily referring to Mandus himself doing one or any of those things? Or maybe referring to the pain and suffering in the coming wars, and how it will be better to just ''save'' mankind than have them cut off their flesh and feet in desperation.

The Machine talks about something Mandus did in the past.

The story isn't consistent. You make it sound like he cut his foot or had a gangrene but it never said anywhere nor implied.

No, the Machine makes it sound like he had gangrene and amputated his foot. The Machine asks Mandus about something in the past which Mandus clearly experienced. On the basis of Ockham's Razor, there's no need to invent a bunch of other stuff to explain how this doesn't mean what it says, and create a string of contradictions in the process.

[Kein]

No, the Machine makes it sound like he had gangrene and amputated his foot.

Words "gangrene" and "foot" never mentioned in the game's language file regarding to Mandus (as if he had/experienced it). Nor in any documents. Nor in notes.
Assumption [noun]:
The act of taking for granted, or supposing a thing without proof; a supposition; an unwarrantable claim.

The Machine asks Mandus about something in the past which Mandus clearly experienced.

The Machine talks about something that may or may not happened or was experienced by the Mandus in the past ("That's not me! I never said that!"). It said a lot of contradicting stuff (that currently has no coherent and logic explanation without lots of assumptions).

I've been pondering this for a while, and I figured I'd mention it. There are a lot of references to the 'end of the century' and the 'ringing in of a new century' in the game. We all seem to assume that the game takes place in 1899, considering the notes we've found.

At this point I'm tempted to point out that the 20th century doesn't actually start until the 1st of January 1901. Which leaves me wondering...

Is the game actually set a year later than we seem to be assuming, or is this simply a matter of free interpretation from the developers? Point being that if the clock is ringing in 'the new century' at the end of the game, we'd technically be hitting the 1st of January 1901.

Based on the notes, all the events happens at 31 Dec 1899