I'm very interested in playing RPG's, but most of them have generally problems to represent a believable world.
So let's begin with things like "character choice" in Skyrim for example. How can I get part of a story when there is no certain character? Instead I can create my own hero where's absolutely no regard of it?
I mean when I have the choice to create my own character this will avoid the binding which is a very important thing of immersion. When I choose who I want, then it feels not real, because I am who I am and not someone I want to play with. This also means a pull down in story telling, because you are someone "self-created" and not a person who is part of a story and the world.
In addition of this there's a further problem in most of RPGs. Let's continue with the skilling feature, where I totally dislike to open a "skill-tree" screen by pressing a key where you can "unlock" new skills by spending XP points or something like that.
That's so unattractive for the gameplay. I mean, such things should happen by player's first hand directly into the game world. No need to open a character screen with tables of numbers and skills! Instead there should be NPCs as "teachers" which can train you in sword fighting or crafting for example.
And this is the next problem. Crafting skills are often made in the inventory screen, where you can modify an armor or brew a mana potion etc. There is no "interaction" with the world. Most modern games have really nice graphics, but objects are just static and this will cause a too linear game with less exploration. This means instead a crafting screen there should be objects in the world on where I can do that. Sharpen a sword by using a grinding stone, brew a potion by operate an alchemy station etc. And even just chairs where I can sit down and relax, doors to open, levers to operate, wash my face at a barrel with water etc. Such possibilities are useless, but are always part of a believable world.
The world design is an other problem. Most developers just copy and paste computer generated stuff. This is the reason why games like the Gothic series, where EVERYTHING is drawn by hand, feels so different in every single location. You will never see the same things on an other place again, everything is different each other and unique. I never saw an other game which has more love on details than Gothic 3 by Piranha Bytes (with Community-Patch of course) and I found a video which shows how you are learning skills in this game:
A further problem in most RPGs is the fact that most of creatures are designed to be "enemies". Monsters with ugly floating life bars and bad appearance what seems like they were just placed there to get fight. Why the hell must everything be some kind of a boss? I prefer the way when monsters were more like well designed "animals" with realistic animations, acting together in a swarm (depending of the animal type), go for sleep at night and doesn't attack directly to provoke a fight. Here are two short examples of great animal design:
That would mediate a feeling that is more decent and not just an other bad "game". It's traditional for a RPG to play the hero who kills monsters and most of the story is just fighting something and get even more points to skill the charater.
This just feels like to play a fun game, which is designed to play when you come home after a hard day of work and just wanted to play something with simple action stuff. Where you just have to walk around, do some simple quests, kill monsters and get even stronger. This is how most RPGs are.
And the word "quest" is a totally no-go, because it only exists in a game and this means an immersive harm! When I help someone in real life, it is not a quest for me, it's an exercise. A to-do list would be fine, where the player adds all new entries. Out of the game, it's OK when saying "quest", but ingame it is a RPG-typical no-go.
What I also dislike is when a game has surreal fat armors, heavy weapons and a lot of magic. This just looks like a "game" and nothing increasingly serious.
In addition most of RPGs have a very ugly HUD, which pulls me out of the immersion by avoid the possibility to enjoy the environment and focus on the world in which I am in.
Now let's come to the music. Music of RPGs always is very good epic, but the problem is that good music does not automatically fit into the scenario. Most tracks are very pompous, but I don't want to play a hollywood movie. Here I can say that less is more. Music should represent the location and that's what a simple composer often does better than a high-budget orchestra. Like this track here, composed by Kai Rosenkranz.
Let's continue with the gameplay. A generally problem. Games often started very fast, you will get couples of armors and other inventory items very quickly - without let the game build up the atmosphere first.
I always dislike it when games are too fast. I prefer the way when you first have to "earn" your equipment which is very weak and unwieldy at the beginning. Later in the game other NPCs should react differently to your equipment. A good example here is Risen, where you stranded as a shipwrecked nameless guy on an unknown isle, no weapons, no armor. The only thing you find is a weak bough which is your first "weapon". It takes a time until you got better equipment, because the game first wants to build up atmosphere and this will make the location more dangerous and you feel like a normal helpless guy. When seeing other NPCs with a strong armor, you'll think it's better not to mess with him. Gives a plus of feeling weak. But you will get better equipment very slowly, so that you are very praised to every new armor you'll get until you are like here:
This means that Piranha Bytes have pursued only the very highest standard. PB stood for incredible quality and ambition. It was this underdog story of the hidden player in the industry, mopping up the floor with a fraction of the funds with the competition. Gothic 2 was as ambitious , recall to the monastery . And with Gothic 3, PB surpassed themselves first The first screenshot where the naked orc grabbed the scavenger , caused a huge hype.
There was no doubt that PB will not be technically on par time. It is important to say that fans of PB just still have these requirements in it, because we have followed and experienced this condition. Why should we settle for less to us now ? This expectation is part of PB.
The world design was consistent, terrific, various and thoughtful. Flora and fauna were credible despite fantasy. Chased the wolves molerats outside and inside, as for example in the old camp , you had to live with its consequences. The NPCs had a daily routine , Digger peed and washed themselves and each responded to theft . But the immersion of Gothic goes much further in depth than what is offered here . I can only speak for myself , but the following has taken me under its spell.
Have recently FF14 ARR ( Mmo ) bought and played , but I could not simply be regarded as a part of the world . Found the game really bad. What is the attraction of Gothic ? For me, first of all , that it is displayed in 3rd -person perspective. Many Rpgs had at that time a Isoansicht . And this view was used to, but I could accept it anyway if it were not for the following. What I've always hated the iso that it had no or little effect on the exterior of my avatar's what I was wearing because for equipment . Ocaraina of Time in Zelda you saw every sword and every plate. My equipment decision had a direct impact on my visual experience. Sure the avatar changed in Diablo 2 as well, but not strong enough. Everything from the iso was far too small and insignificant.
Gothic had this safe style that you noticed any decision visible in the game. Each armor changed me in detailed manner and contributed to immersion at . Each new weapon made me a bit cooler and stronger. The main reason why I had started with G1 , it just offered this perspective and the armor and weapons looked so cool. But also contributes significantly to the gameplay and immersion. The weapons in Gothic 1 saw also really like guns. They bought it from them , that they carried a large two-handed sword (eg Flamberge ) . PB were in their style ( style design ) so sure that it contributed to the authenticity of the world . Remind yourself as you stood for the first time torus . It took no menus or paraphrases to teach the players that this NPC is stronger than you . His overall picture spoke for him, you ran around him, saw his blatant two-handed sword while I was wearing an old sword . The same with Gomez, he reflected for a lie. They saw innos anger and you knew his place . The NPCs had a material advantage in the game world , which was really believable. And the stylish style design support this well-developed game world.
Do you know that? You're playing a RPG like Dragon Age Origins e.g. and it makes absolutely no sub Scheid, if you now have 3 more starch or not . Distribute times just 5 points in the menu , sigh . Once again, the immersion of Gothic itself shines through the attribute system. Everything was credible and consequences. Not only had to aufzuschen teacher, but every attribute point had a direct and visible impact . With +5 strength more in Gothic I was clearly stronger. I could carry a new weapon , and even if not, decided 5 strength , if I could finally defeat a dragon in melee or not. It was so PB Stilsicher again . The whole implementation of increasing was immersive without end. PB made use smaller numbers to explain the potential. Weapons began at 3 damage , went about 5 and when I arrived at 50 damage , so I was looking more than a 5000 dmg weapon in other games. Small numbers have a comprehensive beauty in itself , contribute to the fact that you understand it intuitively and the hero initially buys his Schwächlingsrolle . Are initially allocated 50 Str Schwierigkeitsscaling ago from a strength point , so I like it but prefer it when my character starts with a single point of strength . It helps achieve the illusion that I have actually created my character from the ground up .
Not only does the system improve the saying " less is more" , but this saying applies to the whole game . Gothic had no mini maps , small superfluous UI . No quest marker. Subtle and beautiful impressions of +15 experience points. But these impressions contributed to the success of Gothic . Imagine . Huge Xp messages like in other games or no XP displays. There are games where you have to look in the Journal , because how much is a single enemy XP, or is expected to yourself . I play so many games and no play hide my opinion so far received XP as beautiful as Gothic and yes , all contribute to a better match with . In Risen was obtained without the retro quest system Xp bottom left of the screen in orange (!) Font . This implies that the XP I've got part of another system. Namely the increase screens . It is the same font and color as used for journal ( quest) - posts. It is a design that the feelings towards the player and thus draws a menu outside the game experience . In Gothic had subtle white lettering directly above the heroes. Above his head. The Xp display contributed to the credibility of the world . After a serious fight this display was an indicator to the hierarchy of the world. It was known due to the fact that we have become stronger. The 125 XP, a monitor species showed me in any ranking of these opponents was and I said I was. Each Xp display was part of the player's immersive progression process. Xp appeared after a quest about my avatar head and I felt really at this moment it relates to my character and not some numbers in a far- away menu.
Maybe I sound pedantic, but in my opinion thoughts on the lowest level are the Gothic have done so well . PB would do well to realize how important are such small considerations for game experience and what standards and requirements feel they have already created .
Are you aware that Gothic has its own open-world structure? Not only is everything directly from life and the flora and fauna here, but the combat system is influenced by this philosophy. I can identify all the directions of the attacks. I always played with the keyboard. If I spectacular block , I almost had to really keep you feeling a sword in his hand. My hands took the position Ctrl + arrow button below , as each of Gothic plays the keyboard . The distance between my hands on the Tastaur corresponded almost block the movement or position of the hand nameless hero . But the criticized chest system was brought to the immersion , because I could not even just press E to as if by magic pick up everything , but I had to deal more with the items and so it was almost as if I would really loot a chest and I picked out the raisins . It was the daily life of an adventurer and not an activity the way, where you pressed e without even looking (G3, ahem).
But besides Gothic pursued in the design world a certain structure . Gothic was never really sandbox , the epitome of Open World . Where you could go anywhere you wanted, which is also good . I 'm just not a real Sandboxspieler . No matter what make or TES as well as it may be , more than 35 hours playing time are simply not there. Gothic was a common thread that guides the player through the world and freedoms but then they can make what they want . Dragons Dogma Capcom as an example. One can explore the map freely , but why would I do that ? The map is so big it is also limited . Why should I have to wander everywhere only seen at alll when I later discover that steers the Main Quest in these areas . I need a story , and I can decide for yourself how much I research then . And I do very much like and even . But I see no reason only of exploring the sake to have really seen it all . I enjoy being surprised . This decision has many Gothic freedoms. Not just where I'm going , but how do I solve something . I use violence or the monster shrink role? Lurkor on the dam I lure the guards and they do it when I 'm too weak . Or do I use ice magic etc. etc. Gothic offered this freedom . A freedom which clearly matched the rest of immersive game design .
I write this here because I would like to suggest game ideas or solutions to the problem PB (as a fan) to this discussion. Am convinced that PB could create with current modern games that come close to Gothic. This requires a few different point of view. It was important that you understand from what camp and what requirements I come. If you made the topic fun, so I would like to make. Makes it good.
Would be nice to know what Thomas (our design specialist here) would think about my thoughts!
Googolplex
(This post was last modified: 10-24-2013, 10:58 PM by Traggey.)
(10-24-2013, 07:45 PM)Googolplex Wrote: I'm very interested in playing RPG's, but most of them have generally problems to represent a believable world.
So let's begin with things like "character choice" in Skyrim for example. How can I get part of a story when there is no certain character? Instead I can create my own hero where's absolutely no regard of it?
I mean when I have the choice to create my own character this will avoid the binding which is a very important thing of immersion. When I choose who I want, then it feels not real, because I am who I am and not someone I want to play with. This also means a pull down in story telling, because you are someone "self-created" and not a person who is part of a story and the world.
Understand where computer role playing games come from: table top role playing games. In games such as Dungeons and Dragons you play whatever character your imagination is capable of conjuring up, and you have to make your character come to life. Western RPGs offer you this same luxury which is a positive aspect, not a negative one. Playing somebody else with thoughts that do not coincide with your own in a large, open-ended game where you can do whatever you want is not conducive to immersion at all.
Quote:The world design is an other problem. Most developers just copy and paste computer generated stuff.
They do not. Do you even know what computer generated means in terms of level design? It is not possible to computer generate a large open world in RPGs unless it literally repeats. To take the Elder Scrolls games for example, each area was painstakingly crafted to perfection, and each area in all of those games is completely different in look and feel. Say what you want about Skyrim, the level design is simply extraordinary. Even the most remote locations in that game are memorable, whereas in Gothic 1 the level design with some exceptions ranges from slightly underwhelming to sickening.
Quote:And the word "quest" is a totally no-go, because it only exists in a game and this means an immersive harm! When I help someone in real life, it is not a quest for me, it's an exercise. A to-do list would be fine, where the player adds all new entries. Out of the game, it's OK when saying "quest", but ingame it is a RPG-typical no-go.
The worst "quest" predates role playing games and even so there is nothing wrong with using it in-game. I would feel strange carrying out quests in an RPG set in modern times, but for the medieval/fantasy settings there is nothing wrong about the term "quest" at all.
Quote:Now let's come to the music. Music of RPGs always is very good epic, but the problem is that good music does not automatically fit into the scenario. Most tracks are very pompous, but I don't want to play a hollywood movie. Here I can say that less is more. Music should represent the location and that's what a simple composer often does better than a high-budget orchestra. Like this track here, composed by Kai Rosenkranz.
Are you referring here to Skyrim? If you are, it is clear you did not listen to the music at all. This is very subjective, and to be honest I don't find the Rosenkranz music you linked to be very appealing at all. It's not about how "simple" a composer is or how much money they have, the important thing is that the music is good and fits the context. Which is what you said, but I doubt you believe it yourself with the position you take. I refer you here to probably one of the most sublime tracks in Skyrim's score:
It doesn't really matter whether you were talking about the Skyrim score in general, I just suspect that you automatically sympathize with indie developers and fail to judge things on their own merits. Jeremy Soule is one of the most famous video game composers with a lot of resources at his disposal, and yet he composes some of the most high quality music you can find in gaming.
I didn't read the rest of your post because I have better thing to do than read the literary equivalent of a Gothic fanboy's wet dream. Why must you always act as if you were Piranha Bytes' sales representative?
EDIT: Perhaps I was a bit too harsh in that last part. I did not mean to offend you, I think it's fantastic that you are so passionate about something, but you could tone it down just a little bit.
(This post was last modified: 10-25-2013, 12:30 AM by Bridge.)
Only read the part that Bridge quoted (will read the rest...someday) and I just have to say:
Jeremy Soule is a master in his art.
He makes incredible ''adventuring'' music. No other way to describe it. When other composers try do to the same they come off as boring, but his music helps the personal roleplaying, does for me anyway.
His work for the TES series is the only constant greatness TES has had (in my opinion).
(10-24-2013, 10:02 PM)Cuyir Wrote: Jeremy Soule is a master in his art.
To be fair he hasn't explicitly said anything about Jeremy Soule or the Elder Scrolls music. I just suspected he was since his post is in general quite negative of Skyrim.
1. I sort of get where you're coming from in the premade character thing but still, not every rpg must have a premade rpg for the world to be believable. The rpgs that are focused on telling a very specific tale usually have premade characters because it's important. On the other hand, there are games, like the TES series, that work better with a character created by the player. Plus, like Bridge said, rpgs come from tabletop role playing games that revolved around creating the character in your mind. So being able to make your own character is not a flaw nor a problem if used well.
2. Not touching the copy-pasted part of your argument where you spit shine PB's shoes, so to speak but leveling up your character via menus is just a part of rpgs that work. Plus there are games, like the TES series again, that have trainers so you can more easily unlock skill levels. That or you can just swing your sword a lot of times and, like in real life (sort of), you'll get better at swinging swords. Even if has a traditional skill upgrading system (stat based) it's still doing its work and shouldn't impede any role playing. In skyrim you could make potions on a little alchemy stand, improve weapons on a grinder and such, by the way. Washing your face in an rpg sounds like wasted dev time when they should be making sure the rpg systems work and are polished.
3. So let me see if I understand you. You don't like rpgs that have fantasy elements? You know...the things tabletop rpgs started? Magic is bad? Big weapons and armors are bad? It's an rpg. They've always had fantasy elements. And what's wrong with killing monsters, animals, bandits and etc? Again, that's what rpgs have been about for decades. You sound like you want a middle age simulator, all the chores and not the fun. Every single rpg i've played, from open world games to action rpgs to more traditional rpgs and jrpgs, have had normal looking monsters/animals that JUST happen to be enemies. How many rats have rpgers have killed throughout their lives? I must be at a million and some change. I understand the part about the lifebars but they're usually easily hidden away in the options.
4. I've already discussed the part about the music but I have no qualms repeating myself. From listening a bit to the link you provided it very much sounds like it's trying to be ''hollywood fantasy high budget'' stuff. Literally was able to predict where the songs were going to go to, so to speak. That's a problem with most fantasy rpgs, the music tends to be pretty generic because of the themes. Jeremy Soule tends to be one of the composers that have stuck out since forever. I worship this man. I find it impressive that he managed to make music for an MMO (GW2) beautiful and well written enough that it breaks me away from the trance MMOs are known for. I've had moments in GW2 where I'd be doing x or y and all of the sudden a gorgeous piece of music hits and i'm floored and just stay there, frozen, looking at the gorgeous environments while the music plays an- Oh, right, this isn't about my tastes, moving on (lol).
5. About equipment. Nyeh. Depends on the game. Not EVERY rpg (or game for that matter) is nor should be interested in atmosphere. I want to get better weapons in an ARPG, I want cool looking armor, weapons with a shit ton of effects on them as soon as possible. Again, I get where you're coming from but that is not a ''problem'', just a design choice. In TES games, yes again with TES, they've had a good balance on equipment drops. You start with really simplistic tools and armors and slowly, but surely, begin finding better stuff. Plus if you're a thief you can just steal better stuff. That's what I did in one of my first playthroughs in Morrowind, saw a pretty blade and took it and used it haha. That to me, shows how TES has been doing rpgs right (even if they dropped the ball, in my opinion, with Skyrim).
6. The thing with mmos is that they aren't traditional singleplayer rpgs. MMOs are entirely focused on group based gameplay. MMOs are ALL about the gameplay and rewards. Why do you think people dedicate so much time to them? They don't play them expecting a single player rpg. And I take some issues with your ''not feeling part of the world'' part. Ask any fan of any mmo and they'll say they have some memories attached to parts of the game's world and its music. They'll have little injokes about characters and enemies. We, mmo players, feel part of the world but not in the same way as in a single player rpg.
And ok, being bluntly honest I couldn't read through the rest of your manifesto. Your arguments can be summed up like so: "I worship PB and thus everything they do is golden and anything else is a developing problem"
Seriously. Just because they do something in x way doesn't mean it's a problem if it's not done like that. There's a whole range of rpgs, tastes and design philosophies. I get it, you love them but just because you don't like other design choices in rpgs doesn't mean they're problems. That's pretty conceited.
I mean, you spent a whole paragraph praising font colors? What?
I would like to say though, for those of you who have not played Gothic, that Googolplex is not a delusional fanboy. My opinion of the game as whole notwithstanding, his comments about having trainers that teach you things instead of a leveling up system is one of those strokes of genius that make Gothic such a fascinating game mechanically. If you guys can get it, play it for a few hours and you will see exactly why Googol loves the game so much.
To summarize the skill system in Gothic, at the start of the game you have absolutely no skills and cannot fight with any degree of proficiency. After gaining an x amount of experience points, you get 10 skill points which you can spend with trainers. You get a short dialogue with the trainer if you choose to spend the points where he literally teaches you how to do things more properly, and after that your character gets new animations that reflect this evolution. One quick example is, at the start when you can only get short swords, the character holds it in front of him with both hands. If you get the short sword level 1 skill the trainer tells you to hold it one handed and to hold it down to your side for greater speed and comfort. After that you do not just do an artificially greater amount of damage, you still do but the character literally becomes faster with a sword and can do more moves. This to me is a brilliant scheme that would make any RPG instantly better.
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